"As soon as you make the choice to die to yourself and give over your life to Him" - appolus

without me bringing up predestination....how does a dead man choose to die to his dead self??

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Thom

I just want to say that I appreciate the last two replies and all who dig into the word of God. We live in such a biblicaly illiterate society, that it is refreshing to discuss with good brothers and sisters, the word of God. I say that specifically because it is usally at this point that people start getting personal and "flaming ," the others opinion. I love and appreciate all who study Gods word to show themsleves approved, whether I agree with them or not. Listen brother, you can write a novel this evening and break down what I believe, you will not write anything that I have not heard or studied before. I do not say that negatively. I would just ask you to make whatever you write, easliy understood by all who may visit this thread. Write to them rather than to me, I will read everything that you write with interest, but I know that we are both interested in people coming to a clearer understanding of the truth.

Hi Thommy, you are obviously alive so just to clarify, we are talking about people being spiritually dead. Spiritually dead people have a free will. They choose to live life anyway they see fit. The reason why so many refuse to come to Christ is because they are "masters of their own souls," and would have it no other way. To come to Christ we are laying that down, we willingly become slaves of God in order that we may be truly free. In order to become a slave of God, a slave to righteousness, we must "make," Him the Lord of our lives. There are many who have made Him their Saviour, precious few have made Him their Lord.......Hope that answered your question, you may not agree with the answer, but thats ok :).........Frank

PS If the unregenerate man can do nothing but sin, if he has no free will, then he has nothing to repent of. A man can sin, or he can come to Christ, thats his choice and it is real, just as real as the sin he needs to repent of.

Appolus, I wasn't, at least in my own motives, trying to be dishonest with you. I guess I can only ask you why it is inconsistent to say that God can lovingly and sincerely offer all men the Gospel invitation, that all men will of their own sinful and selfish motives reject the Gospel because they don't want God to be Lord, and notwithstanding that, God can lovingly by grace and mercy create a new heart in some that will be His through faith He gives. He can, again by use of Jesus's own language, offer the Gospel to all sheep but His own will hear his voice and follow him.

God is open to the ungodly to repent of their foolish sins and he will heal them.
I use the original Reformation bibles, the 1526 William Tyndale N.T, Tyndale's 5 Books of Moses, and the 1537 Thomas Matthew O.T avaible at faithofGod.net. Read a bible that is superior to the weak King James and is the correct edition unlike the Geneva.
Jesus Christ died to save sinners, of whom I am chief, said Paul.

Proverbs 13:1
A wise son will receive his father's warning, but he that is scornful, will not hear when he is reproved.
13:17
An ungodly messenger bringeth mischief, but a faithful ambassador is wholesome.
13:18
He that thinketh scorn to be reformed, cometh to poverty and shame: but who so receiveth correction, shall come to honour.
13:19
When a desire is brought to pass, it delighteth the soul: but fools abhor him that eschewth evil.
13:20
He that goeth in the company of wise men, shall be wise: but who so is a companion of fools shall be hurt.

Romans 3:9
What say we then? Are we better than they? no, in no wise. For we have all ready proved how that both jews and gentiles are all under sin,
3:10
as it is written: There is none righteous, no not one:
3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God,
3:12
they are all gone out of the way, they are all made unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no not one.
3:13
Their throat is an open sepulchre, with their tongues they have deceived: the poison of Aspes is under their lips;
3:14
whose mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.
3:15
Their feet are swift to shed blood.
3:16
Destruction and wretchedness are in their ways:
3:17
And the way of peace have they not known.
3:18
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
3:19
Yea and we know that whatsoever the law saith, he saith it to them which are under the law: That all mouths may be stopped, and all the world be subdued to God,

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Terry L Merritt

Okay...
So we have a free will and when we are truly regenerated we do it willingly and become slaves of God...I total agree...
but "masters of their own souls"...no we were slaves to sins...so we were not master...and the sin that was our master caused us to be dead. So how does a spiritually dead man..who cannot be master of his own soul b/c he is dead and in bondage decide to be undead and become a follower of his enemy?
(in Scripture we clearly see that we are 1. dead in trespasses and sins 2. slaves of sin 3. enemies of God.. all prior to salvation of course.)
So I guess my real question is
Scripturally (and remember i agree that we have resposibility over our freely practiced actions, and when (not before or whatever that view R.C. Sproul and Wayne Grudem hold) we are regenerated we come willingly) what steps do we personally take to 1. Rise ourselves from the dead 2. break the bonds of our master sin to go to our new master righteousness in Christ 3. Be God hating to being a follower of God?


Sorry about the double paranthesis above ...but I just want to be understood. Too many times we (we means me as well) believe people fit into a general mold and base our answers off that preconceived mold.
Thanks Bro
Thommy :-)

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Thom

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TJ

Not really sure what you are asking whyme, perhaps you could restate the question more simply. Good evening Thommy, I think that is an excellent question. "Masters of their own souls," was an unfortunate choice of phrase for me, I tend to be a tad dramatic. I would say a better phrase was masters of the destiny of our souls. I agree with what you said about being slaves to sin. I think the problem is that people love their sin, its not that they are horribly afflicted, they actually enjoy their sin, at lease for a season. They also enjoy the mis-perception that they are free to do whatever they want.

We are told by Jesus to count the cost. If we do not count the cost it will end up in our shame and humilation. It also ties into the parrable of the seed and the the different types of soil.
So, what does that actually mean. When a man hears the Gospel, he now has a choice before him. Shall he respond, is he ready to "die?" Only God knows who is genuinly responding to what they "hear." So, the vast majority reject, then there are the many that are called, then it comes down to the few who choose the narrow path. The narrow path is death to self. God knows, He cannot be fooled. And so, in the moment the man cry's out to God, God hears and sees that he is genuine. The man recieves his new heart, he is justified and he is on the road of sanctification. This man will become more like Christ as his life unfolds. As trials and tribulations come upon him,as he actually dies to himself, he will yield and in the yielding he will become Christlike. He will have setbacks and plateau's and occasional falls but the general thrust of his life will be an upward one, upward meaning becoming more like Jesus. Everthing that God saw initially, will be worked out over the mans lifetime. We are bought with a price, we are His. So, we are not rising ourselves from the dead, we are giving ourselves over to death "Not my will but your be done." In the yielding we find life......Frank

I suppose I will not have time to respond as I hoped to. This has been an edifying discussion so far, praise God.

Thommy2, is your question basically this:

What are the human means through which God administers saving grace?

Man is first humbled by the law and persuaded of his guilt. (Acts 2 - "When they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?") He then realizes the free offer of salvation through Christ made to all who repent and believe. (Acts 2 - "Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 10 - "Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.") He then throws his faith upon Christ to satisfy the guilt of sin, and proceeds to be a disciple of Christ. These are all things man does in the process of God's sovereign work, and they are made possible and actual by God's provision. God employs means to administer grace, not laws to merit it. It is God who "adds to the Church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47)

Acts 2:37 (ASV)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 2:41 (ASV)
41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

Hi Guys, here is one of the keys to the whole question of what it takes to be saved. When they heard the word they were "pricked in the heart." Another translation, which I prefer because it is the word katanusso which is stronger than the word "nusso," used to describe Jesus being stabbed with a spear. The words spoken by Peter, now Baptized in the Holy Spirit of God, caused the hearers to be stabbed in the heart. Oh that we would see men such as Peter speak with that same power today. In any case, these men thyat heard the gospel, while unsaved of course, were stabbed in the heart, presumably their totaly depraved heart. They then asked what "they ," must do? Then what? They gladly "received," the word into their hearts and their hearts were renewed. They received the word into their heart. Its a key statement. Its all the work of God, but they "received ," after asking "what must we do." Something for our totaly depraved minded brothers to think about :) For my own full article on "Stabbed in the heart," you can find it here... http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/stabbed-in-the-heartbaptism-in-the-holy-spirit

Hi appolus,

You said, Quote:

""The words spoken by Peter, now Baptized in the Holy Spirit of God, caused the hearers to be stabbed in the heart. Oh that we would see men such as Peter speak with that same power today. In any case, these men thyat heard the gospel, while unsaved of course, were stabbed in the heart, presumably their totaly depraved heart. They then asked what "they ," must do? Then what? They gladly "received," the word into their hearts and their hearts were renewed""

I believe you are saying that Peter filled with the Holy Spirit of God at Pentecost, and having walked with Jesus who promised He would return and now by the Holy Spirit an the Father giving Peter rebirth by the Spirit of Christ in him, is now filled with the Holy Spirit who is giving Peter the words to speak that the Holy Spirit might do the stabbing of the heart, for it certainly not Peter doing the stabbing. Lets give credit where credit is due. Without Christ in Peter, he can do nothing, and if the heart piercing must come from the Holy Spirit, let us pray that the Holy Spirit would come afresh in the minds of man and that those men would do the works by the Holy Spirit that Peter did.

The Credit is all as you say of God. May we just be the preachers of the Word of God. Those sent by the Holy Spirit to do the work of Christ that is born again in us.

Romans 10:14-21 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Only the Holy Spirit can bring Pentecost, even in this day of gainsaying preachers. He is the One we should be entreating to give the body of Christ, His Church, given by the Holy Spirits choice of The Fathers Good Pleasure those that should be saved, even over and above those who do it in their own power and the world hears them, but not unto true piercing of the heart, and those in the world being lost to the Satan of this world devouring the seed planted by the roadside.

It depends on who is planting the Seed, The Father by the Holy Spirit, that Seed being the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ, or man who is sewing where the seed will be devoured and Satan catcheth away the unfruitful seed of man.

Matthew 13:19-23 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The Holy Spirit is the only one that can bring Pentecost. Not mans revival.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip