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We talk a good thing brothers but we do not want to suffer, we talk about agony, but agony of an authentic measure is too great for many of us, it will take only God, we are so preoccupied with life, agony and personal defeat is too much for us to bear..

just pray,

I believe that we need to pray individually, but Corporately all the more. there is power in the sincerity of numbers, I believe that!

 2008/6/11 14:38

Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991

 Re: Christian Leaders Meet Privately with Obama (article)

[url=]A Spititual Voting Both[/url]


 2008/6/11 16:01Profile

Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN


I'm not in any way comparing Obama to Nazi's or Communists

Why not? He and his party, along with the feminists, PLATFORM on the slaughter of the the tune of 1.6 million a year in this country alone...those numbers are greater than Hitler and Stalin and Khan put together. The thinking is more disgusting and twisted than those monsters when we murder the unborn because we see them as a "punishment" (Quoting the Ill. senator)

FYI...Obama supports partial birth abortion, including "failed" abortions where the doctors can be authorized to leave a fully-born infant on the table to die. I have no qualms calling him a Nazi...or Molech if you prefer.

Denver McDaniel

 2008/6/11 18:18Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi everyone.

When Daniel stood before king Nebuchadnezzar(to interpret his dream), who had before put Daniel's friends into a furnace to burn them alive, he did not use the opportunity to rail against the king, or bring accusations against him, but called him 'lord.' This account is in Daniel chapter 4.

I think there is a danger that the things we say about our leaders are being cast upon God himself. Because the scriptures teach that He gives rulers their authority.

"This matter [i]is[/i] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

- Daniel 4:19(KJV)

Pastor Richard Wurmbrand spent 14 years in a communist prison for his outspoken testimony of Christ. If I recall this correctly, he spent this time in a subterranean prison that was underneath the palace of the communist dictator. I have listened to his messages here on SI many times, and I do not recall hearing him speak evil about the dictator whose palace sat upon his torture cell.

Some thoughts, and wish you all well,


By the way, if any are interested, Pastor Wurmbrand's messages on SI are available [url=]here[/url]

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/6/11 18:42Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Eggo's

[i]At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus, And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife. For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.

And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.[/i] Mat 14:1-5

[i]And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.

But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done,

Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison.[/i] Luk 3:15-20

As policy has it here on this forum the political realm is watched very closely and in large part frowned upon for a whole variety of reasons. [url=] MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/url]

With that in mind, I appeal to John The Baptist above for the apparent waffling that has and is taking place with this collusion and ... gobbledygook. What utter nonsense this all is.

Received the following yesterday in my in-box:

[url=]Obama's "off-the-record" meeting with Christian leaders [/url]

What is the point in speaking "off-the-record" in partiality? It is on the level of "I can't really tell you what was said, but I will tell you what wasn't said about what was said?" Such nonsense!

Forget the politics of this madness and turn this back upon those so called leaders of present day Christianity. Abortion, better defined as murder. Beginning and end of story. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

It is a clever and diabolical thing that not only the world but even the 'Church' has allowed this to be termed an "issue" so it can be squared and quartered up against and along side all the other "issues" as one of many, as comparable and compatible to all the others. That it can be pushed aside, 'discussed' and left as to move on to the next ...

For whatever reason I have had this thought repeating itself back into my hearing; Anyone still remember [url=]Andrea Yates[/url]? What difference, better, why was she not set free for doing the very same thing that goes on by the millions every year in this country and countries across the world? Both killed their innocent children and yet only one is considered insane? Is it hyperbole? An exaggeration? Ridiculous?

So much more could be said and if anything, anything at all that might be said it is the [i]mindset[/i] of Christians in this hour and those supposed leaders that speak for Her, for the Church, that is practically flabbergasting. It comes back again to conscience and I must wonder just what it has been given over to ...

Not sure what to make of J. Lee Grady sometimes. Being that he is the editor of the same that was attended to by his boss ... Would to God that he (Grady) would speak more to the 'prophetic' nonsense that is churned out from his employer and must wonder if he doesn't peruse this very site itself sometimes ... But will let his own words speak; (This arrived just prior to the other yesterday).

[b]Obama, Jakes and the “Goose Bump” Factor[/b]

What kind of vibes did you feel when Barack Obama claimed the Democratic nomination?

Now that Hillary Clinton’s campaign has been kicked to the curb, the nation’s most powerful Democrat is steamrolling his way to the White House. The Obama machine is surging ahead with support from a huge army of young volunteers. And since John McCain isn’t doing much yet to attract the fractured evangelical voting bloc, Sen. Barack Hussein Obama will probably turn red states into blue ones in November.

A lot of people are excited about that possibility, including the nation’s most prominent African-American preacher, T.D. Jakes of Dallas. In a gushing endorsement, he told CNN last week that he “watched with visible goose bumps” as Obama claimed his party’s nomination. “This is not just a victory for African-Americans,” Jakes wrote, “it is a victory for democracy that proves that our country provides possibilities for all people.”

I’ll say amen to the fact that we are finally putting racism behind us. But I must admit that the goose bumps I felt last week were different from the ones Jakes experienced. I sensed sadness, and a bit of dread, as I realized that the people of the United States are hellbent on electing another leader who has no problem with killing unborn babies.

“It baffles me that liberals who pride themselves on being racially sensitive can get away with supporting a practice that destroys black families.”

Sorry for being so old-fashioned, but I think abortion is still a relevant issue.

Many Christians today say it’s politically impossible to elect a pro-life candidate. They’ve changed the channel. Opposing abortion is, like, so 1980s. Many young Christian voters love to quote the line that says, “There are other issues that are just as important”— listing the environment, food programs and ending the war in Iraq as the trendy new evangelical agenda.

At the risk of seeming out of touch with our Sex in the City culture, I’d like to mention three things to those Christians who are already plastering their cars with Obama bumper stickers:

1. Maintaining the current policy on abortion is not “change.” Obama promises change every time he makes a speech. He’s out to change our economy, our health care system and our foreign policy. He’s a one-man change agent. Yet whenever he has voted on the abortion issue, all he’s done is protect the right to kill our most vulnerable citizens. No innovation here. All he offers is the same old same old.

Everyone on Capitol Hill knows Obama is a radical when it comes to abortion policy. He opposed a ban on partial-birth abortion (a clinical term for stabbing a baby in the neck when his arms, legs and torso are already outside the mother); then he criticized the Supreme Court’s decision to uphold that ban. While an Illinois lawmaker, Obama opposed a bill that would have prevented the killing of an infant born alive during an abortion.

To top that off, Obama said in April that if his young daughters got pregnant out of wedlock, he didn’t want them to be “punished with a baby.” In other words, he wants the abortion industry to thrive.

2. Abortion is racist. African-American pastor Wellington Boone pointed out in an article in Charisma last month that 36 percent of all abortions in the United States are performed on black women—even though they make up only 12 percent of the population. And Obama is OK with that?

It baffles me that liberals who pride themselves on being racially sensitive can get away with supporting a practice that destroys black families. It’s equally baffling that when pro-life African-American politicians enter the political arena they are ignored rather than cheered with Obamaesque fervor. So not only do we kill black babies; we also silence black leaders who don’t worship at the altar of Molech.

3. Abortion contradicts the essence of Christianity. I have dialogued with young Christian voters who say they are supporting Obama because they believe he will bring justice to poor people who’ve never achieved the American dream. Who are we fooling with this empty talk about justice? Hello? The God of justice abhors the slaughter of unborn babies!

Many Christians who support Obama do so because he opposes the Iraq war. I respect their position about a muddled conflict that has lasted too long. But has anybody done the math?

The number of U.S. soldiers who have been killed in Iraq since 2002 currently stands at 4,092. Yet a slightly smaller number of unborn babies, approximately 3,900, die every day in this country because of abortion. Currently we kill 1.4 million babies a year. Since abortion was legalized we’ve snuffed out more babies than the entire populations of Iraq, Israel and Jordan.

That’s more than 40 million people. It’s a holocaust we deny ever happened.

The mantra of the 2008 Democratic contest has been “every vote counts.” Yet no one, including Obama, is talking about the rights of an unborn infant whose skull is about to be stabbed with scissors or whose brains are about to be sucked out with a vacuum tube. His tiny hands—complete with fingernails by 14 weeks—will certainly never be allowed to press a button in a ballot booth. That gives me goose bumps.


Do note the emphesis if it is not apparent enough. The matter is abortion, not politics nor the so called 'politics' thereof.

We talk often of Revival here in this setting and it is often termed "Awakening" ...

"The Revival Hymn"

(Ian Paisley)

[i]The church of Jesus Christ is largely sleeping, like a great bedroom and you have all the Christians in bed and they’re all sleeping ... and they’re saying "Please, don't wake me up! I want to sleep on!" And of course when God starts to operate a revival people cannot sleep, you can't sleep in church when the Spirit of God awakes the people. Look at the 1st verse of this 52nd chapter..."Awake! Awake! Put on strength!" Wake it up! You're sleepy Christians! Awake thou that sleepeth, Arise from the dead! Christ will give you life![/i]

Mike Balog

 2008/6/12 9:55Profile

 Re: The Murder of the innocents and the Democratic Platform.

Thank you crsschk: for an awesome article, and in light of current controversies, for naming names. It's stunning to think that we as Americans have come to the place that we would even consider Abortion as a National Right. It is simply the opposite of the right to life. It is the right to murder.

How can we call ourselves a Christian Nation with a strait face, and how could any Christian vote for such a candidate? It is an oxymoron. Good is evil and evil is good. Darkness is light, and light is darkness. A Christian supporting a infant murderer as their leader! America is fallen!

When Joshua entered the promise land, and the Angel of the Lord, [JESUS HIMSELF], stood before him, Joshua cried;" Are you for us, or for our adversaries?"

The Lord replied, "I am neither for you , or against you. Loose your sandelstraps, for the place where you stand is Holy."

Jesus demands worship in any situation, ;War or Peace, our allegiance is to Him first and alone!

He is neither Republican or Democrat, Jew nor gentile. He is God, and demands the Worship due Him. He rules alone. "I AM.. the Way the TRUTH and the Life. "WORSHIP ME!".

Thank you again crsschk. This needed to be said, and by the leadership of Sermonindex. If others had done so, this would have been hidden by rolls of over posts crying foul, for reasons of heresy hunting, disrespect, and the politically correct venue. Thank you for naming names, and sounding a clear trumpet.

If the millions of us had done so, 35 years ago, the foul stench of Molech and Sodom would not today be filling or streets with blood, and our pulpits with greedy compromisers.

 2008/6/12 10:40

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


It’s equally baffling that when pro-life African-American politicians enter the political arena they are ignored rather than cheered with Obamaesque fervor.

This is a very real point. The same is true for pro-life women. They aren't welcome. There is something deeper going on here then cries for social justice or ending the war in Iraq. Man is a clever enough creature to hide behind race, or rights, or generation gaps, party loyalties, or whatever symbol he can leverage...but there are subterranean sewers of demonic bile running beneath this 'hopeful' rhetoric that idolizes human nature.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

"...the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

I was listening to John Piper yesterday. He observed that many Christians are terribly fearful of the possibility of a nuclear holocaust, yet are hardly mindful of the certainty of the Day of the Lord that will be a far worse holocaust.

Thanks Mike. I needed the spinal adjustment.


Mike Compton

 2008/6/12 12:20Profile


"Why not? He and his party, along with the feminists, PLATFORM on the slaughter of the the tune of 1.6 million a year in this country alone...those numbers are greater than Hitler and Stalin and Khan put together. The thinking is more disgusting and twisted than those monsters when we murder the unborn because we see them as a "punishment" (Quoting the Ill. senator)" BeYeDoers

I understand the anger here, especially when we take the side of 'life' as we should. But I can't blame one party or another with the ills of our society. Sin is sin and both parties engage in the practice....just as the church has.

But judgment will start with us....the church has failed miserably and that is part of our problem. Christians and the church have been under the delusion that the voting booth is the way to change when they spend more time there than in their prayer closets. And if we do pray, they are prayers to put righteous leadership here or there instead of asking God to reveal our sins to our leaders whoever they are. Daniel confessed for 21 days the sins of himself first then for his nation and was heard. He didn't ask for a 'change of the guard', he knew Babylon was a judgment upon them and prayed in this divine perspective.

We can blame 'feminism' if we want but I reject the fact that feminism rose from a certain party or a 'certain liberalism'. No, as a man and as a man of the church I blame myself and men of God. Men have been abusing their authority over women for years and men of God have used the Bible to enslave women rather than live up to our own Biblical obligations towards them. We reap what we sow. There are times when I can't tell the difference between a man of God and a secular friend in terms of how they treat their wives. Pastors have abused their authority to ensnare weak willed women to abuse them sexually and take advantage of them financially. As men of the church we have failed tremendously so I can't justify a blanket accusation of feminism or any other ism in that sense. Divorce rates are just as high for Christians for a reason and men are 50% of that problem today. Sin is the problem.

And in the name of the ALMIGHTY DOLLAR we make deals with communist countries, while we denounce communism, whose abortion rates and human rights standards are absolutely deplorable (ie.. China). Some Arabic countries sell children as sex slaves but we look the other way for the sake of our economy... we've sold out for cheap affordable goods. And if the church was doing its part helping the homeless, giving to the needy, taking care of the sick and all that is required of us then our light would shine brighter than political ideologies. As a church our opinions are fierce but our light is dim. Whose going to help this country when all of the 'political influence' is coming from the Word of Faith camp? T.D Jakes is nothing compared to Robertson (who by the way supported Giuliani) Ted Haggard or Ralph Reed. Haggard shakes hand with the current President in the spirit of morality, and Ralph Reed headed The Christian Coalition before his greed interfered. The so-called church is a big part of the problem folks. The Catholics even tout morality as their priest are involved in heanous sexual sins. Then they send the priests across the country and offer bribes to victims for a cover up. Yet they want a say in the political realm in the name of morality. Isn't this beyond the 'two party political system'?

I'm all for standing up for the innocent and the defenseless but to cast blanket blame without looking to the failure of ourselves first is getting too convenient these days.

How many of us are praying for women who may be contemplating abortion?

How many of us are praying for our leadership to be enlightened to their sinful perspectives?

How many of us are praying for the Lord to forgive our country for doing business with oppressive nations for the sake of money?

How many of us are praying for the elderly shut-ins or the children who have been sold as sex slaves?

How many of us are praying for the oppressive dictators who have to power to kill and destroy with mass weaponry?

I don't have all the answers and I fail in many areas myself but that doesn't preclude the truth of what really ails us.

 2008/6/12 12:44

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


Hi Mike…

I appreciate your post. I have long wrestled with any sort of involvement in “politics.” I have heard so many believers willing to share their ideas concerning the limits of how they believe a Christian should interact (usually presented as though those ideas came straight from God himself, rather than distinguishing these as ideas about what [i]they believe[/i] the Bible says). To me, such involvement does not reflect a desire to be a part of this world’s system. It simply wants to use the medium (government) to express “holy anger” and spiritual “common sense” regarding a number of issues that are constantly pushed by certain groups in this nation. Of course, chief amongst these is the sin of [u]abortion[/u].

Abortion will probably continue in the United States for some time. Why? For one, the media reports on it as though anyone who is opposed to abortion is a “crazy fanatic” who is “not based in reality.” In truth, however, abortion is restricted or illegal in a majority of the nations of the world. In fact, only a handful of nations permit abortion as a means of birth control (with the greatest number coming from the United States and Canada). Here is a [url=]current map[/url] that reflects the abortion laws of the world.

However, abortion will continue because those who are most opposed to it are often the ones most unwilling to speak out. Christians often remain silent in the Athenian forum of this nation’s policies. Why? This can be because of fear (those who don’t want to be ostracized for their views). It can be that some simply feel that it is unbiblical to involve one’s self with the “affairs of this world” (although they often are the first people to drive on public roads, use tax deductions, cash tax rebate checks or utilize other “government” perks).

Mike, your post reminded me of Keith Green’s song, “[i]A Billion Starving People[/i].”


[b]Verse 1[/b]
I find it hard to turn away, a billion starving people,
But what can one do, I've heard you say - you can't save someone's life
I want to save a life today, I want to get someone close with my Father.
Be them the bread of life today, I want to help them get stronger, help them last longer
And give them a chance to see Jesus.

[b]Verse 2[/b]
I find it hard to just ignore, the murdered unborn children,
Yes times have changed, but still God warns, you shall not take a life.
I want to save a life today, I want to keep one alive for my Father,
Who will avenge the blood!
Of weak and helpless ones someday - whose lives are spilled out like water,
Lambs in the slaughter, and each one is handmade by Jesus.

As you are aware, Keith and Melody Green were instrumental in the anti-abortion movement in the early 1980s. Melody Green created [b]Americans Against Abortion[/b] and printed millions of tracts that educated society about this terrible crime against humanity regarding the weakest in society. Melody Green was even arrested at an anti-abortion protest in the early 1980s. She was even invited to the White House to meet with President Reagan in regard to the best means to combat abortion. She handed the President a video entitled “[i]Baby Choice[/i]” that greatly impacted his decision to write an Emancipation Proclamation for the Pre-born Child.

Abortion is the greatest holocaust in the history of the world. The Shoah resulted in the deaths of approximately 6 Million Jews (along with another 4 Million other groups) over a period of several years during WWII. Stalin killed approximately 10 Million in his “purges.” A couple of years ago, I attended a University seminar about “genocide.” In the seminar, the panelists were discussing how international organizations have trouble deciding upon a definition of “genocide.” Relief agencies could not help in some situations in Africa simply because the circumstances did not affect the deaths of at least 1 Million people who were targeted based upon a particular characteristic of the victim group (the current accepted definition of “genocide”). Critics argued that the definition ignores smaller groups and tribes that do not number 1 Million yet have been targeted based upon their race, religion, culture or AGE. Yet abortion has kills 1.4 Million unborn babies EVERY YEAR! Most of these murdered children are targeted solely because of the “inconvenience” that they could cause to the mother. Ironically, 35 years of abortion in the United States has killed more individuals than all of the wars of the world combined in the past 1000 years! A single year of abortion deaths in the United States (approximately 1.4 Million) is greater than all of the combined deaths from [url=]every war in the United States’ history[/url] (back to the Revolutionary War)! Yet the Left screams to end a war in Iraq because of the “great loss of life to American troops” while they applaud and fight for the right to kill over a million babies each year. This is devilish hypocrisy!

In a political sense, Barack Obama would be the best thing to ever happen to the abortion industry. Not only does he fully support abortion in every circumstance, but he is further to the left on the matter than most liberals! While an Illinois state legislator, Obama supported partial birth abortion. He even supported “secret abortions” for little girls as young as 10 years old without their parents EVERY finding out (paid for by tax dollars while the girls are “at school”). He was the only state senator to oppose extending insurance coverage to unborn babies (for prenatal operations and health care) simply because he said that it would consider an unborn child a “human being” (which would result in the possibility of extending “due process” and “equal protection” via the 14th Amendment of the Constitution – the same Amendment used to establish the “right of privacy” that legalized abortion in 1973’s [i]Roe v. Wade[/i]). In addition, Obama has met with nearly every abortion rights groups in the nation! He has promised to continue supporting them and to do what he can to federally fund abortions and to make it easily assessable to the poor via Medicare.

The media is reporting on Obama like his victory in November is already a foregone conclusion. However, the polls are remarkably close. In fact, if the election were held today – Obama would win the popular vote by a 4% margin, but would LOST in the Electoral College by approximately 12 votes. As we know from the 2000 Presidential Election, it is the Electoral College that determines the victor. Some states are extremely close (such as Ohio and Pennsylvania). One of Obama’s tactics has been to flood the media (print [such as Letters to the Editor], the Internet, radio talk shows, etc… by those who claim to be “Republicans” or “Conservatives” who have decided to vote for Obama. In addition, Obama has attempted to imply that Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians are either satisfied with him – or that they simply do not like Senator John McCain. In fact, they have tried to paint McCain as “too liberal” for the Republican Party (imagine that – coming from the most liberal candidate ever endorsed by a major party!). While McCain is certainly not the best choice for America, he is by far the better of the two choices for unborn babies.

I don’t mean for this to sound “political” – although it can be construed that way in the minds of some. My involvement in voting isn’t to be construed as “bowing my knee” to the “affairs of this world.” Rather, it is a result of my feeling a need to step in when I see a wrong. “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people“(Proverbs 14:34). I find it difficult to ignore terrible injustice. If I were to see a woman being brutalized on the side of a road by a man, I think that I would step in to stop it. I think that even the most ardent non-involvement advocate would find it difficult (if not impossible) to simply watch as a family member or neighbor is brutalized. Yet God has blessed us by placing us within the temporary bounds of the nations from which we dwell. These unborn children and their mothers are my “neighbors.” I don’t believe that I would try to convert the government into a Christian theocracy. Rather, I can participate in this temporary country with the sole purpose of sharing Christ Jesus while doing what I think is best for my family and neighbors.

Paul used his temporary citizenship and government-created laws to bring the Gospel to Rome. I see my vote as an opportunity to use my voice in a manner similar to Jesus at the Temple court yard. I see my involvement as a means to provide adequately for those around me – especially those of my own house. It is not bowing my knee to the kingdoms of this world. Rather, it is bowing my knee to God with the windows open in full uncompromising view of the world around me. It is proclaiming truth in all things – including my votes. It is refusing to stand by silently as the men who want to rule in unrighteousness try to dismiss the manifest holiness of God. It is Paul invoking his citizenship to “appeal unto Caesar.” It is the Ten Boom’s constructing a “hiding place” for those oppressed by their government. It is Brother Andrew obtaining a passport in order to take Bibles into restricted nations. It is Richard Wurmbrand testifying before Congress with his shirt off in order to urge the United States to act on behalf of the underground, persecuted Church abroad. It is proclaiming the truth by making the most of every opportunity provided for us in our temporary citizenship (including our votes). It is using this world as a footstool to lift our Lord up so that the entire world can see.

It is an attempt to avoid sitting idle and merely watch the continued holocaust of unborn children by a certain countryman who wishes to be our elected President.

Could a sailor sit by idle if he heard a drowning cry?
Could a doctor sit in comfort and just watch the patient die?
Could a fireman stand aside, watch people burn and lend no hand?
Can we sit at ease in church with the world around us damned?
- Leonard Ravenhill



 2008/6/12 13:08Profile

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752


The number of U.S. soldiers who have been killed in Iraq since 2002 currently stands at 4,092. Yet a slightly smaller number of unborn babies, approximately 3,900, die every day in this country because of abortion. Currently we kill 1.4 million babies a year. Since abortion was legalized we’ve snuffed out more babies than the entire populations of Iraq, Israel and Jordan.

That’s more than 40 million people. It’s a holocaust we deny ever happened.

How can a true believer in Christ not weep over this?


 2008/6/12 13:27Profile

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