| Re: Ballance in Hearing|
[u]To Taylor [/u]
If it seems I am going slowly here, it is my effort to be clear and not introduce ideas that sidetrack the heart of the issue, as I understand it. I think I am accurate in saying, about myself, that the Word of God is sufficient AND I hear His voice and recognize it as different from mine.
In the extreme, on the one hand we have in churches those who offers all kinds of things under the guise of I heard from the Lord
and God said to me
spoke to my heart
. Damage here includes false doctrine, confusion, torment and unnecessary burden and some (only some) of what prompted Griffos question.
On the other hand, in the extreme, we have in churches (what are some of the words?) dead orthodoxy, legalism, Pharisees. Damage includes hypocrisy. Maybe you have come across this description of the extremes: Truth without Spirit you Dry Up, Spirit without Truth you Blow Up; Truth and Spirit you Grow Up. [u]Phil. 3:10 has the treatment for both extremes.[/u] I dont hear either extreme in these posts. I do hear you, Taylor, found a way out of torment and an unnecessary burden, that might have led to one extreme. I also hear the love of an intimate relationship with God through His indwelling Holy Spirit, treasuring the ability to hear and distinguish His voice. These are appeals for the centrality of Truth, of the Word of God [u][b]and[/b][/u] the reality of the indwelling Holy Spirit (in this case hearing God).
I will try here to clear the table of this discussion and see what is left on it to consider because I think there are some things left to consider.
#1 Surely everyone agrees with you that using an inner-voice [b]as an alternative [/b] to scripture is a bad/dangerous idea/practice. You make an important point because we can all recall specific people that seem to have fallen into that with sad results. There is testimony, yours included, in this thread of the confusion that takes over when going off in that direction. So,
[u]inner-vioce as an alternative to scripture can be taken off the table. [/u]
#2 I did not read anyone supporting the constantly speaking you introduced as objectionable: constantly speaking into our minds what to do/ what I think the Lord is telling me ALL the time. So your[u]constantly speaking can be taken off the table.[/u]
[u]Hearing Gods voice remains on the table[/u]: audible (I take it you mean could have been heard by others near by) or inaudible (in the mind of the hearer).
[u]Toward clarity on the inner experience of thinking[/u]: With the exception of individuals born deaf (as the world understands deaf), when we think, read, meditate, etc., our thoughts, as we perceive them, are heard inwardly in words. They are words and they are not broadcast audibly to any flesh. I take it that this is what people mean by hearing when there is [u]no audible- to-others [/u] sound. Some people, when they are concentrating strongly on what they are reading say they go blind to the ink words on the paper, see what is being written about, dont recall turning pages even. They simply hear the written words like a story being recited and if they see something, they see what is being heard. Forgive me for being so tedious but it seems needful and it goes somewhere. For a contrast here: Deaf people utilize other senses, like they see pictures in a flow without the sound of words.
Now the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and, born again, we have the Mind of Christ. Meditation, thinking Gods thoughts after Him is a perfect aid here. I have never heard of anyone who does not consider that part of the growing in Christ we experience. Paul takes pains to distinguish between what is of Christ and what is of Paul on some points. Making such a distinction is clearly possible and at times necessary. I think this is the distinction [u]Griffo[/u] looks for at a gross level. How to recognize as mine or Gods specific thoughts (that would be inwardly hearable words) or what others happen to say (audibly of course).
So far I have not answered your requirement: I don't see any evidence that the Lord EVER lead His people by implanting thoughts/feelings. I only read about audible speaking or visions.
[u]Scripture to consider [/u][u][b]in evidence[/b][/u]. What do you understand to be the difference between Mary [u][b]hearing [/b][/u] Jesus in John 20:15 and in 20:16. Both were audible. Yet something of her hearing in the second case allowed her to identify the audible voice of the Lord as the Lords. What would be the point here of speaking in a way that she did not recognize Him. Crsschk elaborated on this. Im just keeping the focus narrow. In addition to opening ears to hear we have the examples of opening eyes to see. Regarding the Emmaus Road, Luke says they were not able to see Him. Mark says He appeared in another form. The Lord opened the eyes of Elishas servant. Did everyone else in the neighborhood see? Did the servant see both at once? These men were men just like us. How do we know if, when the prophets report hearing the Lord, that they heard Him audibly when Scripture [u]most often [/u] doesnt say they heard Him audibly. What would be the point, or the need, of a prophet speaking the Word of God, if God spoke in an audible-to-others voice?
What a racket there would be if every time we heard from Him it was audible to others. What confusion: Are you talking to me? What potential for gossip. Sorry, sorry. The hour is late. :lol: Humor helps.
Romans 10: 13-18 is wonderful sandwich in context, with the audible, the center unspecified hearing of the Word of God, and the inaudible.
[u]Now to the hard part [b]that you put on the table[/b][/u]. You say:
Every decision can be made in light of the Bible, and if the Scripture gives no clear teaching or the situation is something indifferent, you are free to decide.
When I read what you say slowly, I find that [u][b](#1) [/b][/u] the decisions I make are limited to what I already know of the Bible. While it is an admirable goal to truly know the whole Word of God (Paul pressed on in his whole life to know Him), it is paralyzing in effect if needed before decision-making, albeit good for stopping someone running around after every voice.
[u][b](#2)[/b][/u] I see one can treat this parallization with if Scripture gives no clear teaching and the situation is something indifferent and you are free to decide.
[u]if Scripture gives no clear teaching [/u] There are a lot of pitfalls in that treatment: If you think that Scripture is sufficient to guide, how could it give no clear teaching on anything we would encounter? We can study the Bible and find much, in context, to the point guidance, that cannot all be applied in a situation at once. Recall all your lessons in learning to apply.
[u]the situation is something indifferent[/u] What doesnt seem to matter to me often seems to matter to God. What I usually find is Grace: God working together for good. Who would ever want to defend a list of situations about which such a Holy God is indifferent?
[u]you are free to decide. [/u] It seems to us we do always decide(when the scripture has been searched enough, is it clear, does God care). The pit fall here is Oh goodie. I always wanted to decide between good and evil. Will there not be an accounting for every word?
Surely you heard the plea for the Spirit of God in the posts. And there is always the needful death of self that can hide as we walk out of confusion.
[u][b](#3) [/b][/u] Then there is escaping paralysis by the extreme of finding a Pharisee. This is the concern I hear expressed in posts. For untold lifetimes, the Jews had the Scriptures that spoke of the Son of Man/ Son of God. Jesus spoke as though they were sufficient. They searched the scriptures. When they finally gave up worshiping the idols made by their neighbors, with great effort they built up, [u][b]out of the words of man[/b][/u] an idol to worship. They changed the Word of God (logos) into the words (rhema) of man. They took the word[u][b]s[/b][/u] (rhema not logos) of Moses, recorded in the Torah, and wrote what rest and no labor on the Sabbath meant (Matthew 12:3-8), what adultery and honoring your mother and father, meant (Mark 8:9-13). In that way [u][b]they not God [/b][/u] said what was good and evil using their human mind (Genesis 3:5). In this way they built up/fashioned, generation by generation, an image of God to worship, an idol made with their minds, rather than their hands, made of the words of man rather than wood. They exchanged the truth for a lie. Their imagination of God lifted itself up against the [u]knowledge[/u] of God so their judgment of what Jesus did became the judgment of man not righteous judgment (John 7:22-24). Trusting in the word[u][b]s[/b][/u] of man, made man himself their idol and they worshiped man: So, they said, Abraham is our father. lifting up the man Abraham and not God.
The idol they made blinded them. Psalm 115:5b-6a, 8 states this clearly in speaking of idols made by man and what happens to idol makers:
eyes they have, but they see not: They have ears, but they hear not
[u]They that make them are like unto them; so is everyone that trusteth in them. [/u]
Idols are teachers of lies that idol-makers trust in (Habakkuk 2:18). Satan fathered mans making of gods as he fathered lies (You shall not surely die
you shall be as gods). Blindness (not seeing, not knowing, not understanding) and deafness are both a witness (Isaiah 44:9b) and the work of Satan (Isaiah 44:18)
[u]This is just one application that stood out to me in the warning Brothertom referenced [/u] (to support the fact of hearing): Take care how you hear (Luke 8:18). If I hear the words of man, I am deaf to the Word of God. Before the Spirit of God is given, we can easily fall prey to the elaborated blindness that Jesus described (Matthew 11-13) or some other elaborated blindness (evolution that worships the creatures flesh improving itself, psychology that worships mans soul improving the self, the worldview of Hitler that worships the generation of a race/nation of supermen, American case law that worships mans ever improving interpretation of right and wrong, etc.). We must know whom we worship (John 4:24).
Back to Balance: It makes good sense to point anyone to the Word of God who is confused with hearing God, discerning and doing His will rather than their own, other people' or the will of familiar spirits, just don't neglect the power of God Phil 3:10.--- Sigh.---[b]Please forgive me for not shortening this.[/b]
| 2008/6/1 13:43||Profile|
[b]if Scripture gives no clear teaching There are a lot of pitfalls in that treatment: If you think that Scripture is sufficient to guide, how could it give no clear teaching on anything we would encounter? We can study the Bible and find much, in context, to the point guidance, that cannot all be applied in a situation at once. Recall all your lessons in learning to apply.
the situation is something indifferent What doesnt seem to matter to me often seems to matter to God. What I usually find is Grace: God working together for good. Who would ever want to defend a list of situations about which such a Holy God is indifferent?
you are free to decide. It seems to us we do always decide(when the scripture has been searched enough, is it clear, does God care). The pit fall here is Oh goodie. I always wanted to decide between good and evil. Will there not be an accounting for every word?
The Scripture [b]doesn't[/b] state where I am to live, where I am to work, who I am to marry, etc. The Scripture [b]does[/b] exhort me to make godly, wise decisions that will be to God's glory and for the good of my family (if I have one). So, as I look for a job, I take potential jobs and I consider if they would be wise jobs to take (will it be a compromise to holiness, etc.). If I find nothing sinful about the job, I am free to either take the job or not take the job. It's my decision. I trust God in His providence to work all things for good. I have a command from Scripture to work with my hands in order to provide for myself.
The same thing goes for marriage. Again, the Scripture gives general guidelines. Is the woman godly, are we a good match, etc? If so, do I want to marry her? It is my decision.
Now, of course, I am going to pray about those decisions. I am going to pray for the Lord to give me a sound mind, wise judgment according to His Scripture, etc... I am not going to pray "Lord, please tell me if you want me to do this" then if I feel a warm feeling or "yes" suggested into my mind assume the Lord is approving of my decision.
Also, it would be wise to seek counsel from godly people who know you personally.
That is what I meant by freedom to decide.
[b]Regarding the Scriptural evidence you presented:[/b]
I am not sure what the witness of the risen Lord in either of the cases presented really have to do with the topic in this thread. Both of those situations are situations where the party involved did not recognize the physical person of Jesus.
I really appreciate the people who are interacting in this thread. I think this could prove to be a valuable resource for readers who want to see both sides of the issue presented and hopefully come to a Scriptural conclusion.
I am being firm in my arguments, but please do not take that as being hateful with the people involved. I am sure if we were to meet in person we would have good fellowship over the things of God.
| 2008/6/1 14:18||Profile|
My own experience is when God speaks to me it has been as it was with elijah.
And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire [b]a still small voice[/b]. And it was so, when [b]Elijah heard it[/b], that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, [b]there came a voice unto him[/b], and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
1 Ki 19:11-13
Now i havent heard an audible voice, but God has spoken to me many times, but 95% of the times it has been through scripture.
I think it is very vital to KNOW the scriptures well, it is the sword that cut and divide through the soulish and the spiritual.
We use the sword to discern if it was god who spoke, as we also do when we hear a "prophet" speak, we use the word to discern if that word was from the Lord or just from that prophets own imagination.
here we have to know the word, it is interesting, that the bible says:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
so we need to use this sword to separate what God may have spoken and not. The major bones in our body have marrow in them, i have heard that the line that separates the two, is so thin, you cant almost tell where the marrow starts and the bone ends.
So it is sometimes with us and the discerning between the soulish and the spiritual.
| 2008/6/1 14:56||Profile|
Elijah heard a voice. An audible voice.
I have been trying to show that there is no Biblical evidence or support for a "God has spoken to me, but not with an audible voice" view.
To believe we receive infallible thoughts (which is what they would be if God was giving us revelation in our thoughts) is to set ourselves up as little popes.
The belief in a perfect and sufficient Scripture that needs no supplements is the only antidote for this. The Holy Spirit enables us to understand, love, and cherish the Scripture; however, I see no evidence that the Holy Spirit reveals things to us via thoughts in the mind.
| 2008/6/1 16:19||Profile|
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an [b]ear[/b], let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Apparently a primary word; the ear (physically or mentally): - ear.
1) the ear
2) metaphorically the faculty of perceiving with the mind, the faculty of understanding and knowing
Part of Speech:
I do understand what you getting at, there are two extremes here, we see many saying they hear Gods voice and saying Gods spirit speaking through them , and as they speak they speak against what we have as written scripture. And on a personal level it can also be misused and mixed up and so on.
But.... what does christians who never once in their life read a bible or have opportunity to do so?
Cant they be lead by God? hearing his spirit speak to their spirit?
[i]Deep calleth unto deep[/i]
Dont you think we see many examples throughout the bible of this? I can agree with your warnings, but as your saying goes over there :-P
dont throw out the baby with the bath water
| 2008/6/1 16:48||Profile|
Matthew 10:27 is referring to the gospel that Jesus gave to the apostles to declare to the people. It doesn't appear to be anything impressed on their mind outside of what Jesus had told them.
Revelation 3:22 is an exhortation to take heed to what had been spoken by the Lord and recorded in writing by the Apostle John in this instance. Again, it has nothing to do with impressions upon the mind. The letters were what the Spirit had spoken to the churches. It was written down.
Regarding Christians who have never read the Bible.... apparently, in all likelihood, someone who knew the Bible must have taught them what the Bible says, or else they would not be Christians. So, if they have a teacher who does know what the Bible says, they can be guided as that person expounds the Scripture to them and explains it to them. However, this is straying away from Scripture reasoning and just throwing out hypothetical situations to try and solve the dispute.
[b]Dont you think we see many examples throughout the bible of this?[/b]
| 2008/6/1 17:09||Profile|
I think we see it all over in acts, The spirit speaking to people, telling them where to go and sometimes stopping them from going.
Sometimes the spirit sent forth men, The Holy Spirit is not as much a feeling as he is a person.
And the spirit speaks...
God is the same,
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
God may speak to me and through me by his spirit.
of course he wont contradict his already written word.
I think we can draw much from Gods prophet Haggai
Hag 1:13 Then spake Haggai the LORD'S messenger in the LORD'S message unto the people, saying, I am with you, saith the LORD.
[i]the LORD'S messenger in the LORD'S message[/i]
I think when Gods spirit, the person is transforming us from glory to glory we will die to ourself, our own words and our whole being will be one with God, when we speak it is God that speaks through us. We are the Lords message, God lives in us
We speak from experience what God already done for us. If it was not so how could we know? is the spirits witness a feeling or what do you think?
Is it audible words in our minds? Myself have never had such experience, but i have heard the spirit speaking to me. Sometimes stopping me from saying something, going somewhere, or said to me "Christian, stopp , turn around go back and say your sorry for the way you said that"
ect , ect
But as I said , we need to know the spirits voice, the Shepard's voice, because there are many voices, we have our own soulish voice, God spoke the whole creation into being, he spoke to men in OT, he spoke to us through his son Jesus, and now we have another comforter/guide.
just my thoughts....
God bless you brother
| 2008/6/2 4:53||Profile|
| Re: Spirit back of the Letter|
[u]Crssch[/u]: In your Spirit back of the Letter post, you suggested to Taylor: Do a study on spirit, on spiritual, on the Holy Spirit and anything related. Likewise study the heart and understanding from beginning to end, the whole counsel of Gods word. This has always been the Lords great controversy with his creatures, that they do not know Him in the manner and ways that he would have us to.
What a wonderful idea for anyone. There is so much to be gained by agreeing with the Word of God. Isnt that why we love Taylor so much: his heart for the Word of God. I have great CONFIDENCE IN GOD (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), the Word of God.
Anyway, I was reminded after that post last night of Job: the door to revival that is there. In particular, Gods view of Job (perfect, upright, feared God, eschewed evil, his servant). Setting aside the HOW of his knowledge of scripture, he both successfully knew and obeyed. Meeting God (could I call that revival) we see our nature and are changed. A wonderful death (Job 27:6, 40:4, 42:6)
6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.
4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
[b]All this from a man that knew and obeyed.[/b]
Returning to your recommended study of the Holy Spirit:
Hebrews 9:14 [b]through the Eternal Spirit[/b] Jesus offered himself without spot to God
Romans 8:13 only through the Holy Spirit that we can put to death the flesh.
Of course there are thousands of eternal truths in these verses but the one that encouraged me today takes note of the PROCESS that occurs for every indwelt child of God.
| 2008/6/2 14:41||Profile|
What does you folks make of this verse? to me it is pretty clear :-)
Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, [b]the Holy Ghost said[/b], Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
| 2008/6/2 15:50||Profile|
| Re: The Holy Ghost said|
[b]LOVE IT I DO - (and much to the point)[/b]
I recall years ago. In a Bible study, about 15 of us. I was oh so slowly growing. There may well have been an unbelieving-but-drawn one there. We had finnished one book of the Bible and in discussing what to study next, everyone had a different idea, favorite, and reason to take that up next. Not one suggestion the same book.
So we prayed (a simple, short prayer) and took a silent vote on pieces of paper. Yup. 15 people wrote "Acts", me included. Not one of us had suggested Acts earlier. It was a wonder to each of us. Joy broke out. We even made a song up (wish I could remember it). There was no audible-to-others voice. Thank you for the memories. :-D Hummhumm I think your verses are wonderful, to the point
| 2008/6/2 17:46||Profile|