| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | HI Moe....I agree, money can be another identifying factor in determining what is and what is not. Although many who give their tithes are "respectable," members or participents of the church yet do not know the new birth. A changed life is the best way to determine the reality of someone's claim, a changed life, Christlikeness and love. Just as an aside, I was part of a church, many years ago, who never had a collection and would not allow a collection. Speakers would come and were not allowed to ask for a collection. That particular church grew from a mans basement to a 5000 member church , supporting 55 missionary families and having 15 full-time pastors. The premise was, that if you were genuinely born-again, you would give. So they simply had wooden boxes on the walls of the foyer and you put your money in there. They did not belive in "begging," for money. They preached once a year on how the Lord loved chearful givers. Its amazing how the Lord honered this. Hudson Taylor, the famous China missionary, had the same policy and God always provided......Frank |
|  2008/5/21 15:10 | |
| | Re: CHEERFUL GIVERS | | Quote:
appolus wrote:
HI Moe....I agree, money can be another identifying factor in determining what is and what is not. Although many who give their tithes are "respectable," members or participents of the church yet do not know the new birth. A changed life is the best way to determine the reality of someone's claim, a changed life, Christlikeness and love. Just as an aside, I was part of a church, many years ago, who never had a collection and would not allow a collection. Speakers would come and were not allowed to ask for a collection. That particular church grew from a mans basement to a 5000 member church , supporting 55 missionary families and having 15 full-time pastors. The premise was, that if you were genuinely born-again, you would give. So they simply had wooden boxes on the walls of the foyer and you put your money in there. They did not belive in "begging," for money. They preached once a year on how the Lord loved chearful givers. Its amazing how the Lord honered this. Hudson Taylor, the famous China missionary, had the same policy and God always provided......Frank
I see no difference in passing the plate and the wooden boxes on the wall, it is ones option either way. The church you alluded to, evidently had some hearts that were right and were born again. I have had the opportunity once to observe exactly who did and who didn't and have noticed the tithers always had a changed life, not perfection, but a heart bend toward Jesus compared to the ones who were slack in their giving. The one who has been forgiven of much, loves much. Some people feel were so good to before they were saved, they feel they were not forgiven of much. Kind of like the rich young ruler who went away sad. I am not saying the giving changed the life, but the changed life produced the giving.
Later Frank
love ya Brother
Mo |
| | 2008/5/21 17:36 | |
| | Re: | | Hi Mo......I agree with what you say. Ultimately, the genuine born again man or woman will do what is right. Although I am not a Calvinist, I agree with "Perseverance of the Saints." It is to those who overcome that the promises are made............Frank |
| | 2008/5/25 11:24 | | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi appolus
Quote:
First of all, I am glad that you deemed to reply to this sort of thread :) Sounds a tad arrogant. Any post on here is going to be mingled with the persuasion of the writer. Indeed, unless one claimed infallibility, which I do not, then that is the nature of writing. Your own post was 80% your own persuasion, which of course you are perfectly entitled to. When we have a fair exchange of ideas, you will have people who come to different conclusions. Of course one must be fully persuaded in what they belive in order to write with any kind of passion. This should not be a source of critisism, merely a source of dis-agreement.
Brother, I apologize if you found my post as being a tad arrogant. That certainly wasnt my intention, and I had hoped that it was evident by the content of the post itself. Apparently, this was not the case. In any event, I had hoped that the content of my post would have spoken for itself. Perhaps you could specifically address what you deemed to be arrogant rather than present it as a subtle slight based upon your own judgment about the intent the post as a whole.
You see, dear brother, the underlying issue that I have had with many threads here in the SermonIndex forums over the years has been with the statements of opinion, conclusion or persuasion that are made voiced in a manner as if they were FACT. It seems that little distinction is sometimes made between FACT and PERSUASION. I believe that there have been many conflicts in the SermonIndex forums that really boiled down to the interpretations of some regarding issues that are not abundantly clear from the Scriptures. Regarding the issues that are clear, we can and should be bold. But regarding those issues that are not completely spelled out by Scripture (at least, to our feeble minds), we should mingle our words with grace and patience.
We all come from various backgrounds, denominations (or non-denominations), experiences and levels of maturity. Most of us are not the same people that we were two or three years ago (or longer) in regard to our character and beliefs. We have changed as we have matured in our knowledge and relationship with Christ Jesus. Some people might be where we were (in levels of knowledge or maturity) several years ago. Others may be where we will be after several more years of walking with Christ. That doesnt change the fact of who we are a sincere follower of Jesus Christ.
It would probably be difficult to find two people at SermonIndex (or even within our own local congregation) who are completely unified in every specific issue. So how can we reach the freedom that comes from the unity of Christ? It may take us allowing for the grace and patience as we rejoice in what is true rather than by focusing on the small or less significant matters that divide the Body of Christ. I have visited churches that have disfellowshipped believers based upon a single doctrinal issue that is not entirely clarified by Scripture. How can we remain a body of Christ when we are so quick to amputate a member that we dont think is functioning exactly as it should? While we may not always take part in the official excommunication of certain believers, we often do so by reaching a verdict with our minds.
As a point of reference, there are some believers here at SermonIndex who feel that they have a liberty or freedom to engage in some limited participation with what some would call the affairs of this world (although that label is certainly open for dispute). Some of us who truly love and know the Lord believe (at least, currently) that we can participate in voting, an elected office, or even the military. While I certainly understand how some believers might read the Scriptures and conclude that such participation is strictly forbidden, it doesnt mean that all of us are of the same opinion. Furthermore, there is no universal conclusion on the matter as embraced by the Church (as there is in other matters like those included in Hebrews chapter 6). This is when we are called to make a distinction, through grace and patience, regarding what is truth from what is a personal conclusion.
The purpose of my post within this thread was certainly not an attack upon your beliefs, words or opinions. Rather, it was simply an observation on some of the more subtle comments within your initial post. There have been some occasional threads and posts that have been almost arrogant in their proclamation of certain evils regarding the limits of our earthly involvement (such as voting). Every once in a while, some believers make it their mission to convey the belief (as though it were an undeniable truth) that any such involvement is downright impious. I dont believe that your post was reflective of this sort of attitude. In fact, I agreed with almost everything in your initial post. But there were some elements that I thought were slight infusions of opinion mingled within a context of things that are implied to be inarguable facts.
Quote:
The fact is that our citizenship is not of this world.
Compared with [b]Acts 22:27[/b]:
27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.
Do you understand why I wrote about a dual citizenship? One is temporary and one is Eternal. Paul, in Acts 22 stated that he was a citizen of Rome. Of course, he was first and foremost a citizen of Heaven. But he invoked this earthly citizenship to exempt himself from an unlawful beating (verse 25) and as a means to use his right as a Roman citizen knowledgeable of Roman law to appeal unto Caesar (Acts 25:10-12) in order to fulfill the command by Christ to take the Gospel to Rome (Acts 23:11).
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To become embroiled in the politics of wherever we are sent is to depart from our mission and is a tactic of the enemy.
Do you understand what this implies? It is a different way of claiming (as a fact) that any of us who become embroiled in the politics of wherever we are sent are departing from our mission and have fallen into a tactic of the enemy. Yet Paul not a resident of Jerusalem became embroiled in the politics (via the judicial branch of government) where he was sent (by God). Paul, a citizen of Heaven, invoked his earthly citizenship in order to progress the Gospel. What if this happened today? What if a believer was arrested for preaching the Gospel in a town square? Should he invoke his earthly (American) citizenship and appeal his case to the Supreme Court? Or should he just back and leave it up to the earthly affairs to decide his fate? It seems to me that Paul (and perhaps, Christ) chose the former.
Quote:
As Christians we are not shackled by rights.
Compared with [b]Acts 22:25[/b]:
25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?
Of course, we are not shackled by our rights. However, they are rights that are exerted by governing authorities that are established by God. Paul knew his rights and explained this to the centurion who was about to beat him. Currently, it is the right of a man of God in this nation to refuse to preside over a holy matrimony of homosexuals. However, homosexual activists are working to take away such a right that they say is based upon bigotry and a violation of the 14th Amendment. If they had their way a preacher would be arrested under hypothetical hate laws. Right now, we can stand against the agenda of such activists by simple participation now in such matters. Otherwise, we might very much find ourselves in the future embroiled by such matters against our will.
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Men who are not Spiritual will detest this view.
The steps of a righteous man are ordered of God, the man in rebellion will order his own steps and make up his own rules and will ultimately violate Scripture to accommodate his own will.
Do you see how this sounds? It seems like those who disagree with the extent of your post are not spiritual or in rebellion. While it is true that there are some unspiritual men (at least, who think that they are unspiritual) who involve themselves with politics or participation in this government of the people, is it expedient to claim that those who do are unspiritual or self serving violators of Scripture in regard to our own will? Is it possible that some of us who believe in certain limited forms of participation are just as spiritual and just as piously sincere as those who resolutely do not?
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I have often heard the "if you dont like it here you can go somewhere else," opinion. I have never found that very helpful. I do appreciate the fact that there are freedoms in the West. If I had to be rich or if I had to be poor, I would probably choose to have money because it is a lot better to be able to pay your bills than to not be able to. So, of course, if one could be free, in a political sense as opposed to being oppresed, then of course any normal human being would not choose to be oppresed.
I have heard such things too. But that was not the nature of my post.
Quote:
Just as their is inherrent dangers in being wealthy(lack of dependence upon God, and a multitude of Scriptures to back that up) there is also inherrent dangers in political freedoms. The very thing that you said could lead to apathy,not being involved and being detached , I would say that there is far more apathy in a wealthy free society amongst Christians, than say in a plcae like China. Perhaps we disagree with the state of the Church in the West?
I would argue, and it is my opinion, that the state of the church in the West is a dire one. I would say that almost all of Europe is a post Christian society and that America is slowly but surely headed in that direction. I would further add that in places of opression, China for example, then we have a very lively undergound Church that is largely sold out to Christ. When there is a price to pay for our Christianity, it tends to weed out the "tares," to a great extent.
I suspect that you are correct! There is a danger in becoming apathetic concerning the blessings of liberty. Blessed individuals tend to become careless of their blessings. I think that was what I was trying to convey earlier. We only have the ability to complain about things (well, at least more than once) because someone else fought for that freedom (both verbally and physically). Now free societies have some individuals who exercise that ability to complain and then claim that it is wrong to fight for any sort of freedom.
For the past school year, I have taught part-time at a public University. This semester, I asked my students about whether or not they voted in a recent school referendum. The school is proposing to increase tuition, fees, room and board with the possibility of the cost of one year of their education increasing quite a bit (approximately $4250 or more). Several of the major proposed fee increases must be approved by the student body. When I asked whether or not the students in my classes voted, only 2 of the students admitted that they did. When I asked why they didnt vote, most of them said that they just didnt care to get involved. This was reflected across our campus of about 6,000-7,000 students. Only about 900 students even bothered to vote over a period of a week. Ironically, all of the proposed fee increases passed some by a total of just a few votes. As a PhD student who is ABD (all but dissertation), I understand how every dollar can matter in an increasingly volatile inflationary economy. I would be disappointed for my tuition and fees to be raised $45 let alone $4500. Similarly, I am just as concerned if the government wanted to raise my taxes when my wife and I are barely squeaking by right now. Thus, through my vote, I suggest to the officials elected to represent me that I would prefer my taxes to NOT be increased. Yet I know some people like the students in my classes would prefer to remain silent and just let history and policy take its course.
This sort of apathy is extended to our government. America has a unique form of government. The government is not an institution that exists apart from the citizens. The government [u]IS[/u] the people. It is truly a government [i]of the people, for the people and by the people[/i]. Since the average elected official remains in office for about 10 years or less, there is a high turnover rate. The direction of the nation is determined by the majority or plurality of votes (or [i]voices[/i]) of elected officials who are elected via the majority votes (or [i]voices[/i]) of the people. When one group is quiet with their voice (or vote) you can be certain that the other side is not. Believe me abortion, homosexual and pornographic free speech groups would LOVE for Christians to simply stay at home on November 4, 2008. Why? Because the size of the evangelical community matters in this nation. While we know that not all evangelicals are truly born-again Christians the fact remains that their participation (or lack of participation) has been a deciding factor in the policies of this nation for many years.
In November, the nation will elect a president. That president will nominate a justice (or two) to the Supreme Court. There is currently a 5-4 split on the Supreme Court. The Court determines just which pieces of legislation or findings of lower courts can be considered law. Many of our early laws were based upon precepts found in Scripture (Charles Finney, after all, began reading the Scriptures since it was required in law school because it was the basis and foundation for law in a Christian society). A liberal court, however, sees the Constitution as a living document for which it can be interpreted differently as the culture and views of the electorate changes. A conservative court views the Constitution as strict constructionalists believing that the founding fathers meant what they said (and nothing more, nothing less) during the writing of the law.
Will I cast a vote in November? Probably. Why? This isnt due to bowing my knee to a particular politician, political party or political system (or even the affairs of this world). Rather, I live in a nation that has maintained a freedom against intrusion for the people. The government literally protects the people of this nation from the government. I fear the day when the government will call out believers for our faith even more than they do now. So I choose between the alternative choices that I think that would be better for my wife, family and neighbors. Of course, I could choose to do or say NOTHING. But that too is a choice.
Like I said, I understand the reasons why Greg and the moderators frown upon the mention of politics for politics sake on this website. This website is designed for the purpose of considering the Old Paths of those who have gone before us. SermonIndex desires to incite that awesome hunger and thirst for intimate fellowship with our Lord above the doctrines and neo-modern traditions of men of which such an awakening is reflective of true personal revival. Yet there seems to be a subtle infusion of non-involvement thought for which there can often be no answer given the mission of this website. It is easy to invoke such statements calling any sort of involvement as entirely spiritually gratuitous when a defense of any contrary position itself could be deemed political.
Dear brother, I am not saying that this was your intent or even the overwhelming motivation behind this or ANY of your posts. In fact, I am not even calling out any specific or individual brother or sister within our humble fellowship. Rather, I would simply like to see all of the brethren here if they desire to be so nonpolitical to be nonpolitical in all of their posts. In other words, it is possible to be politically nonpolitical. I have witnessed some brethren so ardent in their nonpolitical rhetoric that they have gone so far as to mention names of politicians in subtle attacks on both their policies and even claims of born again faith. Is this what we should become?
I guess that my point (however convoluted it might be) is the same in this regard as it is toward those who have referenced intricate personal doctrines and various conspiracy theories. We should be very quick to make a distinction between statements of fact and statements that are based upon our own unique conclusion. In this regard, not all of us think that voting is a sin. In fact, some of us might even feel that, like Cornelius the Centurion, a person can be both a soldier in this nations military and still be a devout and gifted believer in Christ Jesus. Yes, our opinions and conclusions about such things can differ and we can even discuss such things with perfect grace and patience. However, it would be helpful if we could somehow make the distinction within our posts. It is MY OPINION that I can vote. I arrived to this opinion after much prayer and study. Yet I have not arrived to the perfection of I Corinthians 13:10 yet. I am very much aware that I could be wrong, just as much as I am very much aware that the opposing thought could be wrong.
I would like to add that I very much respect the opinion of those who might disagree with me. This is true of all matters of doctrines that I might not personally adhere to. I do read their posts with sincere interest and without a pretense that my doctrinal views (or mere opinions) are superior to anyone elses. There have been many, many instances where I have changed an opinion after something that I initially read here in the forums (or heard in a sermon contained here). More times than not, however, these were presented in a manner reflective of Gods wonderful grace and patience. It is my sincere prayer and goal that I might do the same with my words.
Thank you, dear brother, for your patience with me. We are all on this journey and pilgrimage together. May we encourage one another with the liberty of God as we serve Him as willing servants of the cross!
"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
- II Corinthians 3:17
:-)
_________________
Christopher
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| | 2008/5/25 14:32 | Profile | bonni
Member
Joined: 2005/8/9
Posts: 100
montana usa
| | Re: gleaning good points from this thread | | I have enjoyed reading this thread, I agree with brother Keith Daniel when he said "The greatest tradgedy in the church today is compromising christianity" The fact that the majority of what we see in christendom is apostate, is not the cause for so much corruption in our country. I believe that the blame lies in us who are truly born again,in that we are compromised in our walk, beginning in the home. If we are truly the "salty" christians then that means one thing for sure....SALT STOPS CORRUPTION.
I do believe that we should not be entangled (wrapped up in the affairs of this life, for that is dangerous and can choke out the word of God. But I also believe if God's providence of letting us be born in a country that gives us the right to use our legal system as Paul did when he said "is it lawful for you to beat a Roman citizen, uncondemned?" then we have the liberty to use that system, as long as the participation in it does not violate God's higher law.Example.. participating in war when God clearly says "Thou shalt not kill" God sets up kingdoms and he takes them down, also God turns the heart of the kings as he turns the rivers. God sets up government for His sovereign purpose, we are also to obey that law as long as it does not violate God's higher law. Jesus clearly taught Peter to Pay taxes, even though it was "unfair to tax the children", He also taught him not to fight back in the flesh,"My Fathers cup, shall I not drink it?" "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" "Here is the faith and the patience of the saints"
There were many good points made by all that I read on this thread, thanks to all that posted, you really got me thinking!
Blessings to all, bonni
_________________
Bonni
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| | 2008/5/25 15:13 | Profile |
| | Re: | | HI Chris.....I appreciate your reply. I took the time to read it carefully and I can appreciate many of the points that you made. I think that if you re-read the beginning of your intial comment, you will see that you said that"the only reason I reply to these sorts of threads." It was for that comment alone I made the observation that it was a "wee," bit arrogant. :)
Let me just state emphatically....I do not believe that it is sinful to vote. I did not nor have ever said that. If you feel led to vote, then you should vote. I think you go too far Chris when you claim that Paul was being political when he claims the right of Roman citizenship to avoid a beating.
When I speak of political invovment, I am speaking in the context of the last ten years or so. When, it was Christian leaders who were making the claim that it was almost ungodly not to be involved in politics. And, the reason that this country is in such a mess is because Christians had taken themselves out of the political arena. I simply and completely disagree with that opinion. I would be more in line with, and have written for several years about , with Keith Daniel.
You see Chris, it is not a matter of simply voting or fulfilling your civic duties. It has been strongly suggested that if we want to turn this country around then we have to send good men to Washington and vote for George Bush. This was going to be the answer to all of our problems, the democratic system was going to create a righteous country, part of the answer was going to come through Washington. I disagree with that notion. There was no political element to the Welsh revival, or the revival in Lewis in Scotland or indeed the great awekenings. The answer lay, and continues to lie in Christ alone. For instance Chris, Barna says that if every professing Christian brought one person to Christ, and that one person brought one person to Christ, and this happened three times, all of America would be saved. And if all of America was saved then you would not have a homosexual problem or an abortion problem or a need to strive endlessly in the political realm trying to glean enough Supreme court judges to slowly turn this nation around and away from its wickedness. Perhaps many would think that it is unrrealistic for every professing Christian to bring one person to Christ? I do not. Do I think that this whole country will be saved and that all our problems shall go away ? No :) It has already been written what things will be like in the last days. Yet we , as Christians must strive towards His perfection and follow His ways . Spurgeon once said to a young Pastor who had come to ask why he was not seeing someone saved every week in his church "surely you do not expect to see someone saved every single week do you?" And the young Pasotr replied "Well, no." And Spurgeon said "There is your problem."
I make that point Chris, just to say that we as Christians do not really expect Jesus to solve our problems, we believe that we have to take matters into our own hands, and I am specifically talking about the morals of the country now, whether it be abortion or homosexuality. We believe that we can somehow legislate the morals of indivduals.
I would say that my key Scripture in all of this would be ....2Ch 7:14 if My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
The Church in America and in the West is in such a woeful condition, that we do not even have the luxury to expend any energies on political movements. We need to sort oursleves out before we can even begin to have an impact on the world around us. When we are revived and we are once again a city set on a hill, then and only then will we begin to influence the society that we find ourselves in.
Finaly Chris, and I respect your opinion brother, I would urge you to study the role of an Ambassador, for that is what we are. Ambassadors are sent to countries to represent their own conty and its leader. It would not be appropriate for the American ambassador in Russia to try and influence local politics. If he did this he would be thrown out of the country. He is there to speak for His King or his president or his Prime Minister. That is what we are here for. To speak for our King and speak His words to a world that dwells in darkness. The political syatem that exists right now in America, will not even allow the basic tennents of our faith to be spoken. If the President of America, or future President were to come out tomorrow and say that there is no other path to our heavenly Father but Jesus, and that all others are on a road to hell, he would be thrown out of office of would not be elected. We have a national day of prayer where the prayer excludes the name of Jesus for fear of offending. If the President were to tell the the truth about the Muslim faith or the Mormon faith then how far would he get in the politcal realm that so many would have Christians be involved in as an agent of furthering the Kingdom. There is only one way I know to further the Kingdom of God and to make disciples of all nations, that is the way of Jesus. When we can boldly proclaim His name as the answer to every problem and the only path to Salvation, then we will be coming close to where we should be.
So Chris, yes be a good citizen, vote if you are led, if there is a law that can be used to avoid suffering for the sake of Christ, then utilize it, but make no mistake, the time is drawing near when every Christian in the world , no matter what political system he belongs to , is going to have to count the cost of following Jesus. The Anti-Christ will be in place and all those laws that "protected," us will be overturned, perhaps in one day.
PS I love you brother and I respect yout opinion and your right to hold and express it. The fact that I disagree with you does not mean that I do not respect you. We may perhaps have to agree to disagree which is a perfectly acceptable solution to me. I do agree with the basic premise of sermonindex about matters regarding politics, it rarely bares fruit and almost always tends to be a Spirit quencher and is usually always in regard to American politics. |
| | 2008/5/25 16:31 | | pastorfrin
Member
Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406
| | Re: | | Brother Chris and Brother Frank,
I wish to thank both of you for your well written articles which express your views.
You have both clearly expressed your idea of Christian duties while we are assigned as ambassadors to this earth.
If I was able to express myself in the same manner, I would possibly attract less conflict.
Though it is evident which view I hold to, it has never been my intention to cause conflict with any of my brothers or sisters here on SI. If I have given the impression I was judging any of you please accept my humble apology, for this has never been my intention.
I believe through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and our love for the brethren; we will and should be, even with our differences, able to further His will and calling in the body of Christ.
I wish to express my sincere love for each of you and all those here on SI. Please forgive me if my rustic way of expressing myself, at times may offend; I assure you all it is never my intention to do so.
The graces of our Lord Jesus Christ bless and keep you.
In His Love
pastorfrin
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| | 2008/5/25 19:02 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Praise the Lord Pastorfin. "You will know them by their love for one another." "And when they were all of one accord." Yes brothers and sisters, this is the attitude that comes about just before revival. There is room for difference in non-essentials, when we decide to leave our pride and our ego's at the door then the Lord begins to move. While there is many differeing opinions on this forum, it is our love that will win out. All of us who know Jesus will spend eternity together, let us strive together under a banner of truth and unity and love. There can be no unity without truth and Love. I thank you for the humility of your post and your leadership in Christlikeness. We can all mess up and let our mouths rush out before our hearts, but it takes a "real man," to humble himself and reach out to others in the love of Christ. May we all follow pastorfin's example. We can have all things, we can be right, but if we do not have love then we have nothing. The Truth spoken in Love is the power of God....Frank |
| | 2008/5/25 21:54 | | pastorfrin
Member
Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406
| | Re: | | Brother Frank,
Thank you for your kind words and the spirit of love which permeates each of your post.
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
In His Love
pastorfrin
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| | 2008/5/30 12:12 | Profile |
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