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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
wisevirgin wrote:
If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply [b]because it pleased Him to choose[/b]:

In other words, God elect arbitrarily.

What is the basis of God's pleasure in choosing?

[b]What is it that pleased God to choose one and not the other?[/b]

You just keep falling into the same loop.

 2008/5/14 23:50Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
wisevirgin wrote:
If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply [b]because it pleased Him to choose[/b]:

In other words, God elect arbitrarily.

What is the basis of God's pleasure in choosing?

[b]What is it that pleased God to choose one and not the other?[/b]

You just keep falling into the same loop.



The following is part of an article entitled "Does God Elect Persons Based on Their Foreseen Faith?"
By John Hendryx and can be found [url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/foreseenfaith.html]here[/url]:

Is God Arbitrary

First I would challenge you to wrestle with the following verse. Paul encountered the very same argument against election; that it would make God unjust and arbitrary.

Romans 9:18-23
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

To begin with, Paul would not ask this hypothetical question unless He believed the ultimate determination of ones salvation to be in the hands of God alone. Paul is saying that God has the sovereign right to do with us whatever He wants. Will you deny Him this right? Furthermore, since we know the character of God we must not think that, on His side, God had no reasons or causes for saving some and not others - - “since the divine purpose always conspires with His wisdom and does nothing without reason or rashly; although these reasons and causes have not been revealed to us. In His counsels and works no cause is apparent, it is yet hidden with Him, so that He has decreed nothing except justly and wisely according to His good pleasure founded on His gracious love towards us.” (Heppe, Reformed Dogmatics) Just because we don’t know why He chooses some to faith and not others is not reason enough to reject it. In the absence of relevant data, we, therefore, have no reason whatsoever to assume the worse, so there are no legitimate grounds for doubting the goodness of God here. Therefore, to doubt that God can choose us based solely on his good pleasure, is to doubt the goodness of God. The "foreseen faith" people are, in effect, saying that they cannot trust God in making this choice and prefer it to be left up to the fallen individual, as if he would make a better choice than God. Let's summarize then the response to the charge of God being arbitrary:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29: 29

1. Election is grounded in God's moral character (i.e., goodness, compassion, empathy, integrity, non-duplicity, non-favoritism, justice, etc.)

2. God does have "causes and reasons" for His choices, though these are "internal" to God (i.e., not found in the creature). We know He is good and therefore can trust that He would make a better choice than we would.

3. He 'does NOTHING without reason' --- He 'does NOTHING rashly’. He has simply not revealed these reasons and causes to us--although they certainly exist. Since they haven’t been revealed, we cannot try to figure them out but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.

4. Salvation is not conditioned upon anything that God sees in us that makes us worthy of His choosing us. NONE of His decrees were done except justly and wisely".

We must always keep in mind that God is obligated to save no one and that we all justly deserve His wrath. Therefore, if God saves anyone, it is purely an act of His mercy. All evangelicals agree that it would have been just of God to wipe out all mankind in judgment, so why, then, would it be unjust for Him to judge some and have mercy on the rest. If six people owe me a debt, for example, and I forgive four of them their debt but still require the remaining two to pay up, I am totally within my right. How much more so God? (Read The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard: Matt 20:1-16)

“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy” (ROM 9:16).


_________________
TJ

 2008/5/15 0:21Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I have no intention of conveying any attitude other than humility and quietness, when I say that this argument is immediately resolved for the person who has learned and felt that he was by nature, having descended from a spiritually corrupt man, Adam, not only a sinful being from conception, but at all points a criminal in ceaseless rebellion and worthy of divine judgment, even up to the moment He received a new nature in Christ.


Apart from this new nature, from which his willing decisions flow naturally, he would never have come. And with it, he must happily and willingly come, just as freely as every rooster crows in the morning, as every cat that cleans itself daily, and every pig that returns to the mud. The nature determines the will. God determines the nature.

Election is God's determination from eternity to apply by the Holy Spirit a new nature to whomever He choses according to unmerited grace, purchased through the effectual atonement by Christ on the cross.

 2008/5/15 1:02Profile









 Re: Created In Christ Jesus

The Eternal Son of God was/is the Father's criteria for electing. Eph.2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



All He is in His Person is all the sufficient cause necessary for the Father to do all He has done.



All is found in Him. Whether good pleasure,will,counsel,purpose,election,foreknowledge,etc.,etc. Whatever pleased Him was and is to be found in Christ. We are witnessing such things being manifested in time from His eternal counsel. Matthew 17:5-8 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.


The Father elects not arbitrarily, but on the contrary, His Beloved Son is the sole sufficient cause of electing. Col. 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.



I would see Jesus. He is my all in all.



To Him be all the Glory as we keep our eyes and hearts fixed upon Him.



But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus(Eph.4:20,21).

 2008/5/15 1:02
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
tjservant wrote:
3. He 'does NOTHING without reason' --- He 'does NOTHING rashly’. He has simply not revealed these reasons and causes to us--although they certainly exist. Since they haven’t been revealed,


As a wise man said,
Quote:
PreachParsly wrote:
Logic said that the election is based purely upon foreknowledge. Those that disagree with him haven't given a reason God elects- because they don't believe you can know- yet they insist that Logic is wrong. Here is an example: Boy 1 says, this is a circle. Boy 2 says, "No! It's not!" Boy 1 says, "well, then what is it?" Boy2 says, "I don't know but I don't agree with you."

You can not say that I am wrong if this is your position.
End of your argument.

 2008/5/15 10:11Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
You can not say that I am wrong if this is your position.



I did not post in order to prove you wrong. I post only to look at all sides and hopefully move us all toward the truth.

Grace and peace


_________________
TJ

 2008/5/15 15:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

The foreknowledge is certainly in the equation of God's election, but not for acts of sin or goodness, it is the person God is concerned with, not what he has or will do. He will do what He wants to do for His pleasure, not because we deserve and consideration at all. God's foreknowledge is in Himself, I choose to elect because it pleases Me. In that pleasure is the act of loving us so much He killed His Only Begotten Son to be able to save some, even the elect of God must not consider that God does arbitrarily anything, but even if He does who are we to say you cannot do that, it is not fair?

Foreknowledge is not the act of election, God is the act of election of a person, not man's deeds.
God knew that Jesus Christ would be in the elect son's of God from even before creation of Adam.
This is foreknowledge. God knew He would have to put His nature in any created being or they could never be in His house. There is a parable, that says, "I never knew you". How does He know us? By the nature of God Himself that He has birthed in us by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Foreknowledge is not an act, but persons' in Christ which He chose before the foundation of the World.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

His blessing, His Christ, His choosing, no blame and His Holiness, His Love, His predestination, His adoption, His Christ, unto Himself, His good pleasure, His will, His purpose in Himself, His gathering, His counsel, His His His, and on and on and on, His seal, His answering of the Son's prayer, The Holy Spirit in you, And those who first trusted in Christ, By Him who has saved us to the utmost. "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

How much more do we need to realize, it is all of God and none of us. How stubborn man is, no wonder He had to crucify His Son to give man His own Nature and He Gave His Son His nature before the foundation of the World and manifest by His Seed in Mary, to bring forth the first Son among many.

Foreknowledge is nothing compared to the Love of God in Christ Jesus birthed in the son's of God by His choosing and His Love and His pleasure, for our good.

The only reason man wants to know what God's criteria for election is, is to test God as the Pharisaic testers did Jesus Christ. They were of their father the devil. Who are we of?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/15 16:34Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
tjservant wrote:
Quote:
You can not say that I am wrong if this is your position.

I did not post in order to prove you wrong. I post only to look at all sides and hopefully move us all toward the truth.

Grace and peace

Ok

Quote:
“It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy” (ROM 9:16).

With your position, I will pose this question:
If nothing of God is arbitrary & without partiality & all things that God does are according to set standards of righousness and pure justice, furthermore, the set standards of righousness and pure justice are evident to all, why can't we know them?

 2008/5/15 16:56Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
theopenlife wrote:
I have no intention of conveying any attitude other than humility and quietness, when I say that this argument is immediately resolved for the person who has learned and felt that he was by nature, having descended from a spiritually corrupt man, Adam.

I need to stop you here.
When did Adam turn corrupt?
Knowing that Adam sinned in his so called "perfect" state, How did Adam sin without being already currupt?
Maybe, you start from the wrong premises.
I say that all mankind are born from Adam who is of the flesh before he sinned.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, 1: the lust of the flesh
2: the lust of the eyes
3: the pride of life...
is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Before adam sinned, he ha all these.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food(1: the lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes(2: the lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise(2: the lust of the eyes), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Quote:
not only a sinful being from conception, but at all points a criminal in ceaseless rebellion and worthy of divine judgment, even up to the moment He received a new nature in Christ.

How is one sinnfull before he sins?

Quote:
Apart from this new nature, from which his willing decisions flow naturally, he would never have come. And with it, he must happily and willingly come, just as freely as every rooster crows in the morning, as every cat that cleans itself daily, and every pig that returns to the mud. The nature determines the will.

Actually, ones own effections dertermines the will.
The effections of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

Quote:
God determines the nature.

According to you, then, God determind sin nature.

Quote:
Election is God's determination from eternity to apply by the Holy Spirit a new nature to whomever He choses according to unmerited grace, purchased through the effectual atonement by Christ on the cross

The question comes back as, [b]What is the criteria that God uses to determine the "whomever He chooses"?[/b]

 2008/5/15 17:03Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
wisevirgin wrote:
All He is in His Person is all the sufficient cause necessary for the Father to do all He has done.

That does not answer the question as to what criteria God uses to deterine whom He creates in Christ.

Quote:
All is found in Him. Whether good pleasure,will,counsel,purpose,election,foreknowledge,etc.,etc. Whatever pleased Him was and is to be found in Christ.

That is all arbitrary, because it is subjuct only to will & not of a standard rule.

What is the standard rule of God's "good pleasure, will, counsel, purpose..."
It is justice and rightousness.
Now, how is justice and rightousness applied to His election.

Quote:
The Father elects not arbitrarily, but on the contrary, His Beloved Son is the sole sufficient cause of electing.

That is to ambiguous. How does Jesus cause the election?

 2008/5/15 17:05Profile





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