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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


Preacher Parsley,

Thank you for your grace in your answers. I sense from your answer that you believe it is not possible for the reformed thinker to believe that God is 100% responsible for salvation and for the sinner to be 100% responsible for his sin, including the sin of unbelief. Would that be an accurate representation? I just finished a fantastic book by Ian Murray titled "Spurgeon versus Hyper-Calvinism. Spurgeon and many reformed thinkers like him think that man's moral responsiblility for unbelief is perfectly compatabile with the doctrine of election because Scripture provides for both. Whether men can figure out why that is so is irrelevant. Spurgeon was content to live with that mystery as well as other mysteries like why does God allow evil. He preached a universal call and beleived that those that were saved out of it were chosen by God's sorvereign choice, not man's free will. The reformed thinker claims just as much Scriptural merit in man's responsibility for sin and unbelief as the Arminian. To me the major difference is not in responsibility for sin, that is a shared view, the difference is in responsibility for salvation.

 2008/5/28 11:37Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


wisevirgin wrote:
Many are ignorant of what Arminius taught

Many are apathetic about what Calvin and the Reformists taught and remain in their teachings.

If more knew what he himself taught rather than what has been passed along as arminius' doctrine they'd be shocked at the least.

If more knew what he himself taught rather than what has been passed along as Calvin's doctrine they'd say, "Oh, that's extreme Calvinism, I don't believe that."
All the while their beliefs lead to the same logical conclusion to what they deny.

Carried to its end, Arminius himself as well as the Remonstrant of the present day, and also those who claim Armenians as Biblicism today who are most ignorant of classic or historic Armenians, duly exalt man, his ability and will, either knowingly or unknowingly, whereas those who are not ignorant of his systematic theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works.

Carried to its end, Calvin himself as well as the Reformants of the present day, and also those who claim Calvin as Biblicists today who are most ignorant of classic or historic Calvinism portrays God as a sadistic tyrant either knowingly or unknowingly.

Whereas those who are not ignorant of his horrid theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works by man willingly humbling himself to God instead of being "raped of the soul" (R.C. Sproul) and forced to love God when he didn't want to in the first place.

Ultimately, the whole of the argument hinges upon man, his free will, and God and His will being subservient to the former regarding that salvation which the Gospel of God, which is to the praise of His Glorious Grace, has wrought.

Ultimately, the whole of the argument hinges upon God, and the true meaning of His sovereignty and man being able to submit to God's commands to repent, even while lost and in sin which is to the praise of His Glorious Grace, has wrought.

As for these men who wrote these songs that you have posted on this thread, or any others, they are but expressing the ignorance of your own theology/doctrine.

 2008/5/28 11:54Profile

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164


I sense from your answer that you believe it is not possible for the reformed thinker to believe that God is 100% responsible for salvation and for the sinner to be 100% responsible for his sin, including the sin of unbelief. Would that be an accurate representation?

Yes, I know that some hold to that. To me, it's not that certain Calvinist don't believe that but it doesn't seem consistent. At least in my mind, it seems that if man doesn't have a choice then they don't have blameworthiness.

Arminians would also say that God is 100% responsible for our salvation. But then the Calvinist would say "it doesn't seem consistent."

Josh Parsley

 2008/5/28 12:38Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


Christinyou wrote:
"we have our own faith"? True and where did it get us?

It Got us to acknowledg the truth and acting on it.

Israel had their own faith and they did not make it, did they?

[b]Rom 9:31-32[/b] [color=990000]But Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
[b]:32[/b] Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone[/color]
[b]Heb 4:2[/b] [color=990000]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them[/color](Israel)[color=990000]: but the word preached did not profit them(Israel)[color=990000], not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[/color]
Israel didn't have faith.

If it is our faith, why the Cross and death of Christ,

Because it wasn't faith at all.
Not because we didn't have the "faith of Christ"

It is simple and man wants to make it his faith that saves him, when God Gave His Son because He knew our faith would not save us, so He supplies the only Faith that will save us and that is the Faith of Jesus Christ in you "the hope of Glory".

It's not a matter of whoes faith we have, but what or who the faith is in/on.

Then by His Faith is our faith quickened and our bodies quickened and we now have Faith, Hope, and Love.

Where do you get that? No where does it say that "our faith is quickened". Nor does it say that after all you quoted we then have Faith, Hope, and Love.
I sure wish you would stop your twisting of the Scripptures.

My own faith? I think not and believe it is not my faith and cannot be, it can only be the Faith of Christ that saves and keeps on saving. Not the doctrine of man by he works and his faith.

That is where your missing the mark. Faith is not the thing that saves, not even the "faith of Christ". What saves is the relationship one has with him.

The Faith of Christ which became their faith when they believed and the only way they could believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, now has become their life and their all in all in Christ Jesus their Faith, Hope and Love and their All in All. The clay could not create itself, the Potter gave Grace and Faith, that the dead in Satan might have life in Christ.

There you go again with your strang theology/doctrine, the Scriptures never mention " the dead in Satan".

If your going to make a contrast with "the dead in Christ" you must know the contraposition of that. The counterposition of "the dead in christ" would be the dead in Adam(1 Corinthians 15:22)
If it isn't "the dead in Adam" the next option would be "the dead in the flesh"(Romans 7:5).

Are you a vessel of Grace and Faith? Or are you a vessel of sin and death,

And again, adding your wretched teaching and twisting the Scriptures.
The Bible mentions nothing about vessels of "sin and death" which is only a law which Romans 8:2 say that people walk after.

believing a lie and were given over to a reprobate mind that goes its own way and works for me and my father satan, my way, my choice and my nature,

They did not like to retain God in their knowledge, that is why they were given over to a reprobate mind, not because they believed a lie. The context is stubornness to known things as the reality of God. They were doing things which are against their own nature(Rom 1:26) which throws your idea that they were doing things according to their nature.

or am I a product of the Potter created in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to be in the Faith, Love and Hope and life of Jesus Christ, who on the Cross gave His life to purchase and posses for God, son's for His house.

Fact is, all mankind is a product of the Potter. However,Incontext to the Potter & the clay, one must refer to the context in which it derives, Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specificaly for wrath.

The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but use the same.

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.

The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.

Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.

Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.

Your faith is failing if it is not the Faith of The Son of God

No, faith will fail if it is not founded upon Christ and in His teachings (His Word), not that it isn't Christ's faith.

because your faith will always fail and return to its own nature which is Satan's faith bought and paid for by the first Adam, which keeps us from God the Father and condemns us to hell.

Where do you get this filth?
It is not about who's faith or ones nature that the faith is from. It is only about Who or what ones faith is in/on.

His Faith is securing our daily walk in Christ by His Faith and His Cross and His Blood, and His all in all.

His faith is not securing our daily walk in Christ, it is only that we have our faith in Him or on Him and His word, that is our security.

His Faith? Yes, Praise God.

The Last Adam. 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

First man Adam, now a dead soul in Satan.

I don't know where you get this trash, please explain how you get by in saying that the First man Adam is now a dead soul in Satan.

It is His Faith not ours.

No, it was our faith in/on Him, not His faith in Himself.
You have the strangest doctrine I've heard.

Specifically the Faith of the Son of God that was birthed in us at the moment of Salvation.

This implies that you did not have faith to be saved, since you got faith afterward "at that momen"t.

It is Christ and Christ alone that has saved me.

I thought you said that it wad "His faith" that saved you?

 2008/5/28 13:51Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


boG wrote:

It is a mistake to think of salvation as "physical tangible" evidence. This is simple not proper.

Not totally, because the fruit is tangible. The must be fruit if the faith is real.

For this is that "Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive." Just as the anointing oil was never to be poured out onto the flesh but was, indeed, poured out over the head and running down the beard and garments (Psalm 133). Neither is it something to be grasped with the hands but rather "Your conscience beareth you witness in the Holy Ghost, that these things are so", or again, Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

My question is, how could someone think Christ is in them when He is not.
Could it be that they don't think the "substancial evidence" (tangible fruit) is of any consequence?

Is this not substantiating, or evidential?

You are talking about the subjective. I am talking about the objectiveness of our faith.
Objective, is when the proposition is certainly true of itself; and subjective, is when we are certain of the truth of it in ourselves only.
The one is in provable atainanble facts, the other in our minds, not able to be proven, but only by what we say.

I am talking about that which is evident to the world as tangible, not what is only known to ourselvs in our minds or hearts.

If Christ be in you, it will certainly be evident to those around you, not just yourself. It will be as substancial evidence that should convict you in a court of law prooving that you are a christian. Tangible evidence that people around you will see and know that you are a christian.
That is what faith is described as in Hebrews 11:1

If you are to consider the words of James, "faith without works is dead." Then allow me to illustrate something for you.

John 6

28. [...] they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

29. Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

The people asked "so that we may work the works". They wanted to know what they must do to be prepared or acceptable to do the works of God. They wanted to know what work they needed to do before they could do God's work.

Jesus told them "This is The work of God"! It is to believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom the Father has sent.

If this is the work of God, as Jesus said, and we already know that faith is born of God (1 John), then it is true that "faith without works is dead."

As it says in Hebrews 4:2,

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This is "The Root of the Righteous" (title of an excellent A.W. Tozer book).

These things you have said are "the fruit of righteousness."

What are works of faith?

Works are the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you the Hope of Glory!!!

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Roots will always bring forth fruits (both inward works and outward works) in accordance to the source of its life. To the one that has the Seed of the Word planted in them: that Seed shall put down roots. One may plant, and another may water, but it is God who causes the growth. The branch that comes forth (Matthew 13:23) needs to be found in the True Vine (John 15), Who is the True Source of Life.

John 15:8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 13:35. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

This is the "fruit of righteousness" that is meant to be given in the same measure which we also did receive it from our Father of Light above (Luke 6:38, "give and it shall be given" and this is not talking about money as I have heard recently and so often).

John 13:34, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

John 14:9, "As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love."

The "root of the righteous" is Christ Jesus.

The "fruit of righteousness" is to abide in Christ Jesus and He in us, that we may be one; as He is One with the Father (John 17). Hid in Christ, in God.

I like the way you think
Take this for an example:
[b]John 15:4b[/b] [color=990000]...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:16b[/b] [color=990000]...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:24[/b] [color=990000]For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...[/color]

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.

This shows that one is born selfish and in reliance on the knowlege of God.

All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.

Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
And if man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has this world for his root &/or his own self as his root. As the world being his root, that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ being His root and bearing the fruit from that root which is loe.

Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.

What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and that depends upon what it's root is of.
[b]James 1:24[/b] [color=990000]for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what [b]kind[/b] he was.[/color]

What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what root it had (its nature), it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit because the root is different, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

However, the fruit is tangible which prooves the faith is real.

 2008/5/28 13:58Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Explain these and where our faith unto salvation comes from.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Who gives faith to every man that is in the Body of Christ? Who gives that proportion of Faith to believe. If Christ is in us and it is His Faith that makes the Faith of God with or without effect, Who's Faith are we dealing with? Not ours.

Romans 12:3-6 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Again, who gives the proportion of Faith?

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

The Spirit gives faith. Who is the Faithful One and whose faith is the only pleasing Faith to God the Father. It is the Faith of Jesus Christ and His is the only Faith that the Father will accept to the believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and in believing, by His Faith we are made righteous.

1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Who gives Faith? Why does Paul say we have One Spirit of Faith?

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

In His Faith:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Without Christ even with our faith we are reprobates. Only By the Faith of Christ in us are are we in "The Faith".

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Hearing of Faith; if we hear Faith, who is speaking? The Word of God and who is the Word of God?

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

So where does our saving faith come from? Not of Self lest any man should boast, for we are saved by Grace through Faith and that is not of ourselves. Just like works unto salvation cannot save, so also the faith unto salvation cannot save unless it is the Saving Faith given by God through Jesus Christ, for it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me, and the life I now live ("I live") in the flesh I live by the Faith of the Son of God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You ask "where do I get this filth".

Answer: The Word of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Do you believe?

Praise God, because it is because of His Faith that we do.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Who's Fruit?

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

"in", "a fixed position in place and time. Not by my Faith but by the Faith of the Son of God do we now live our lives. His Faith which the Father fixed in us that we might become the son's of God in Him.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

In Christ: Phillip


 2008/5/28 19:24Profile

Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia


by Logic on 2008/5/29 2:54:38

Carried to its end, Calvin himself as well as the Reformants of the present day, and also those who claim Calvin as Biblicists today who are most ignorant of classic or historic Calvinism portrays God as a sadistic tyrant either knowingly or unknowingly.

Whereas those who are not ignorant of his horrid theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works by man willingly humbling himself to God instead of being "raped of the soul" (R.C. Sproul) and forced to love God when he didn't want to in the first place.

[url=]Mark Driscoll responds to the blasphemy of the "God of Predestination is a Rapist" lie.[/url]

Benjamin Valentine

 2008/5/28 21:00Profile

Joined: 2008/5/15
Posts: 1


My friend,
You can't rape the willing. God makes his elect willing by regenerating them, making them see their sin and giving them faith to believe on Christ.

 2008/5/28 22:05Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


I have never been, as would seem fit to brethren that seek God on their own merits, a Calvinist and have not studied his writings or agree or disagree with his theology.

So I though it about time for me to see what all the grumble is about. In seeking Calvin's writings and comparing them with my own 30 year study of the Word, I have come to see, Calvin agrees very closely to what I see as truth in scripture. I like Paul have not made it yet, but I do speak Christ and Him crucified, and by Him is the only way to the Father, pretty much from what I have read from Calvin's writing and his messages preached from the pulpit also, which have been kept for posterity, that is his theology also.

Calvin really does believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is the only way to the Father. This is just one of Calvin's messages on John 3: 16.

Pretty interesting.

John Calvin's Verse Commentary
John 3:16

16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish. And this order ought to be carefully observed; for such is the wicked ambition which belongs to our nature, that when the question relates to the origin of our salvation, we quickly form diabolical imaginations about our own merits. Accordingly, we imagine that God is reconciled to us, because he has reckoned us worthy that he should look upon us. But Scripture everywhere extols his pure and unmingled mercy, which sets aside all merits.

And the words of Christ mean nothing else, when he declares the cause to be in the love of God. For if we wish to ascend higher, the Spirit shuts the door by the mouth of Paul, when he informs us that this love was founded on the purpose of his will, (Eph 1:5.) And, indeed, it is very evident that Christ spoke in this manner, in order to draw away men from the contemplation of themselves to look at the mercy of God alone. Nor does he say that God was moved to deliver us, because he perceived in us something that was worthy of so excellent a blessing, but ascribes the glory of our deliverance entirely to his love. And this is still more clear from what follows; for he adds, that God gave his Son to men, that they may not perish. Hence it follows that, until Christ bestow his aid in rescuing the lost, all are destined to eternal destruction. This is also demonstrated by Paul from a consideration of the time;

for he loved us while we were still enemies by sin,
(Ro 5:8,10.)

And, indeed, where sin reigns, we shall find nothing but the wrath of God, which draws death along with it. It is mercy, therefore, that reconciles us to God, that he may likewise restore us to life.

This mode of expression, however, may appear to be at variance with many passages of Scripture, which lay in Christ the first foundation of the love of God to us, and show that out of him we are hated by God. But we ought to remember — what I have already stated — that the secret love with which the Heavenly Father loved us in himself is higher than all other causes; but that the grace which he wishes to be made known to us, and by which we are excited to the hope of salvation, commences with the reconciliation which was procured through Christ. For since he necessarily hates sin, how shall we believe that we are loved by him, until atonement has been made for those sins on account of which he is justly offended at us? Thus, the love of Christ must intervene for the purpose of reconciling God to us, before we have any experience of his fatherly kindness. But as we are first informed that God, because he loved us, gave his Son to die for us, so it is immediately added, that it is Christ alone on whom, strictly speaking, faith ought to look.

He gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him may not perish. This, he says, is the proper look of faith, to be fixed on Christ, in whom it beholds the breast of God filled with love: this is a firm and enduring support, to rely on the death of Christ as the only pledge of that love. The word only-begotten is emphatic, (ἐμφατικὸν) to magnify the fervor of the love of God towards us. For as men are not easily convinced that God loves them, in order to remove all doubt, he has expressly stated that we are so very dear to God that, on our account, he did not even spare his only-begotten Son. Since, therefore, God has most abundantly testified his love towards us, whoever is not satisfied with this testimony, and still remains in doubt, offers a high insult to Christ, as if he had been an ordinary man given up at random to death. But we ought rather to consider that, in proportion to the estimation in which God holds his only-begotten Son, so much the more precious did our salvation appear to him, for the ransom of which he chose that his only-begotten Son should die. To this name Christ has a right, because he is by nature the only Son of God; and he communicates this honor to us by adoption, when we are engrafted into his body.

That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.

Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father — that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.

Still it is not yet very evident why and how faith bestows life upon us. Is it because Christ renews us by his Spirit, that the righteousness of God may live and be vigorous in us; or is it because, having been cleansed by his blood, we are accounted righteous before God by a free pardon? It is indeed certain, that these two things are always joined together; but as the certainty of salvation is the subject now in hand, we ought chiefly to hold by this reason, that we live, because God loves us freely by not imputing to us our sins. For this reason sacrifice is expressly mentioned, by which, together with sins, the curse and death are destroyed. I have already explained the object of these two clauses, which is, to inform us that in Christ we regain the possession of life, of which we are destitute in ourselves; for in this wretched condition of mankind, redemption, in the order of time, goes before salvation.

It goes to say, I should read Arminius and see what the stink is all about.

How many have studied Calvin and what he truly says and not believe by word of mouth of man that he is a complete idiot and headed for Hell in his heresies, which Paul says must come so we may find out who is right and Hear the Holy Spirit, not man.

In Christ: Phillip


 2008/5/28 22:18Profile


PreachParsly wrote: Do you understand the heart of anyone who believes in "free-will"?

The issue is not understanding anyone's heart as we know the testimony of Scripture re: the heart, Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is incurable; who can know it?

The issue is the testiminy of Scripture re: the will. "The Scripture... hath no such term [Free] at all or anything equivalent unto it. But the expressions it useth concerning our nature and all the faculties thereof in this state of sin and unregeneration seem to imply the quite contrary: as that we are in “bondage” (Heb 2:15); “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1); and so “free from righteousness” (Rom 6:20); “servants of sin” (v. 17); under the “reign” and “dominion” thereof, (vv. 12, 14); all “our members being instruments of unrighteousness” (v. 13); not “free indeed” until “the Son make us free” (Joh 8:36)..." (John Owen)

The testimony of Jesus is that men are evil, Mat. 7:11 Therefore, if you, being evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give good things to those that ask Him?

Luk 11:13 Then if you being evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father out of Heaven will give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him.

PreachParsly wrote, "The reason Arminius-or anyone who holds a similar doctrine- believe in free-will is because they don't want to say that God causes all men at all times to commit sin. Whether He does this actively or passively (by giving them no other choice but to sin) the Arminian sees that as blaming sin on God...It not that man is so wonderful that he must have a free will it's that God is too good to be the author of all sin."

Again,the apparent good intentions of protecting God and His character must bow before Scripture. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We know that God cannot sin because of the above Scripture, as well as many other Scriptures. This Scripture specifically teaches us that God cannot sin as He is under no law. No law nor being can judge Him. He does not necessarily do what seems right to men, but what he does is always right because He does it.

Exo 4:11 And Jehovah said to him, Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the dumb, or the deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Is it not I, Jehovah?

Isa 45:5-7 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.

PreachParsly wrote, "... calling each other wicked won't get us anywhere."

Please read what I wrote, "...they are but expressing their intolerance against any attempt by wicked man's NATURE to obscure God's Glorious Grace."

This is to be understood as merely reiterating what the testimony of the Scriptures I quoted above teach, that the nature of man(mankind)is wicked(evil). The quote from Owen also mentions a number of Scriptures which teach this.

This invention of men(i.e. the idol of free-will)is no less than a devilish(slanderous)scheme to obscure the Glorious Grace of God in the Gospel of Grace. Even if men cannot see it as such. To detect the Deceiver in this may not be so easily discerned as the subtler the deception the more diabolical. It is one of the master cannons of Lucifer who appears an an angel of light(so his name infers),but it is indeed his doctrine as satan,God's adversary, as satan infers.

May we not be ignorant of his schemes(devices).

 2008/5/29 2:03

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