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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 2015 end of the Tribulation?

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This is a good presentation of the Feasts of the Lord:


The Seven Feasts of Israel are key waypoints on a roadmap in Holy history. [b]They tell the story of the main Covenant events between God and His Elect people as they occur here on the earth and in time.[/b] The story begins back with the people God called in Old Testament times. And it extends right through to the Apocalyptic events John saw in vision and wrote about in the Book of Revelation. Indeed the very next feast, the Feast of Trumpets is coming up in some future new moon of Tishrei to express its New Covenant fulfillment in holy history. The Feast of Trumpets will almost certainly be the one that will usher us into the 70th week of Daniel and the final seven years of this present age. At the end of those seven years the final Day of Atonement will come into its ultimate fulfillment as well. This will be the very last day of this age.

The Seven Feasts will take us beyond the Apocalypse. The seventh feast, the joyous Feast of Tabernacles, will come into its ultimate fulfillment as the true new age dawns. This will bring in the Millennium of Messiah, that glorious age to come. The deserts will bloom and streams of waters will break forth upon the dry ground. God will camp out with mankind for 1,000 years as Emmanuel, "God with us". And as a shepherd feeds and tends his sheep He will draw His people to Himself.

[b]Is there an 8th feast? Might the Feast of Hanukah, the festive winter season of the Eternal Light celebrate the glorification of all the saints from both this age and the 1,000 year Millennial age to come? Our Apostle Paul gives us a glimpse of that. - 1Cor. 15:24-28.[/b]

[b]The first four of the Seven Feasts of Israel have already been fulfilled.[/b]

They were fulfilled in spectacular fashion.

They were fulfilled right on the auspicious Hebrew calendar dates on which they have been celebrated in times past, the same dates that will be celebrated forever more.

The three spring feasts were fulfilled by Jesus our Saviour. And the summer Feast of Pentecost was fulfilled as well. It was fulfilled by the Holy Spirit 2,000 years ago. Here is the situation so far.

1. Passover [b] Fulfilled![/b]
(By Jesus at His crucifixion on Nisan 14 in the spring of 32 A.D.)

2. Feast of Unleavened Bread [b] Fulfilled! [/b]
(By Jesus at His burial in the tomb on Nisan 15 in the spring of 32 A.D.)

3. Feast of Firstfruits [b] Fulfilled![/b]
(By Jesus at His Resurrection on Nisan 17 in the spring of 32 A.D.)

4. Feast of Pentecost [b] Fulfilled! [/b]
(By the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost on Sivan 7 in the summer of 32 A.D.)

[b](A gap of 2000 years or so has allowed the Light of Israel to go forth into the nations for the Gentiles to be evangelized). [/b]
[b] - - - - - - - - - - - - WE ARE HERE - - - - - - - - - - - - - [/b]
Now here come the next three holy days on the Hebrew Calendar.

They are probably just up ahead. [b]They are the Fall Feasts of Israel.[/b]
5. The Feast of Trumpets [b] Unfulfilled ....(as of yet).[/b]
An epic event will unfold on the new moon of Tishrei on a future Jewish New Year.

................... Trumpets and Atonement will probably erupt into holy history seven years apart.
................... They probably mark out the introduction and the terminus to the final seven years of this age.

6. The Day of Atonement [b] Unfulfilled ....(as of yet).[/b]
Tishrei 10 seven years beyond that epic future Feast of Trumpets.This will be the final Day of Reckoning, for that year, for the Jubilee, and for the age.
The Jewish nation and "all Israel" will be saved! - Zech.12:8-13:1, Rom. 11

And then comes the Day of the Lord. It is Doomsday for the wicked. (Mat.13:30)
The sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the heavens. (Mat.24:29-31)

He will deliver His people at Jerusalem by His action at Armageddon. (Joel 2:28-32)

And He will deliver His people in exile in the magnificent Bozrah Deliverance.
He will glorify all His Elect at the Resurrection-Rapture . (1Thes.4:15-17)

They will be drawn out from Israel, from the Church, and from the gentile nations.

7.[b] The Feast of Tabernacles Unfulfilled ....(as of yet).
Tishrei 15 will come five days after that final epic Day of Atonement.
This will mark the coming of Messiah to tabernacle with His covenant people.
Thus begins the long awaited 1000 year Millennium of Messiah. [/b]

......................................................... .........................................................

All these above are the Seven Feasts of Israel.
As we can see, there are three big events left to be fulfilled.

[b]God's future epic agenda will unfold right on God's calendar.[/b]

Three blockbuster events will bring in the fulfillment of each of the [b]three Fall Feasts of Israel. [/b]

Truly, these Feasts of the Lord are God's plan of redemption for man.



 2008/5/1 21:46

Joined: 2004/8/19
Posts: 119

 Re: 2015 end of the Tribulation?

According to the Jewish Calendar, we can expect about another 232 years before the establishment of Christ's 1000 year reign. It's all theory though. We shouldn't be ignorant of theories, but I think there are better ways of being prepared ;-) Fact -we are living in the last days.



 2008/5/1 23:20Profile

 Re: The Time is at Hand

If anyone has ever read this 138 page book by Jay Adams please reply to me with your thoughts on it as I'd like to know them. The Time is at Hand is the title of the book. Thanx It's offered here:

 2008/5/2 0:41

 Re: The Time is at hand

Hello Frederick:

I totally agree with you—none of us know when Christ will return. Usher believed that everything was going to take place on this earth in 7 thousand years. Six thousand years (6 days) from the beginning (creation) to the Second Coming, then the 1,000 year (1 day) reign of Christ, and then the New Heaven and the New Earth. God loves a seven! In prophecy time, "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8

What this post does for me is to place more urgency into my walk. None of us know the day or hour that we will be called home. Longevity runs in my family, and even though I am in the Word every day, and every night, and I witness to those that the Lord places in my path, I feel that there should be more of a sense of [b]urgency[/b] in my own live. I really don’t know how long God will give me. Do you? A friend recently sent a list of all those that were in High School with us that have gone on—some to be with the Lord, and some to be in hell. It was shocking-some died very young, and others not so young, but too many were on that list.

So, it really doesn’t matter if the Lord comes this year, or in two hundred years, what matters is that I go about His work with the [b]urgency and belief[/b] that he will be here tonight.

What is His work? [b]” And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”[/b] Matthew 28:18-20




Friedrick wrote:
According to the Jewish Calendar, we can expect about another 232 years before the establishment of Christ's 1000 year reign. It's all theory though. We shouldn't be ignorant of theories, but I think there are better ways of being prepared ;-) Fact -we are living in the last days.


 2008/5/2 0:55

 Re: Tribulation,Tribulation or Tribulation

The Three Kinds of
Scriptural Tribulation by G.H. Clement

“Do you believe that the Church goes through the tribulation?” Whenever one asks that question, you can be sure you have met with a Futurist whose mind is steeped in teachings derived from Scofieldism. Now, since the question of tribulation looms so large in the minds of many Christians, it is important that we consider this subject in the light of God’s Word.
About three years after I had escaped the snare of the Scofield Bible, I decided to make a thorough study of tribulation. I soon discovered that the Bible referred to three distinct types of tribulation. After quite a lengthy time of delving into the Word I submitted my findings to Dr. McNichol, the principal of Toronto Bible College, where I was then a student, and he agreed that I was not dealing in mere theory.
Let us start with the first type of tribulation where the Bible starts, namely in the book of Leviticus.
A. The Jewish tribulation. In chapter 26 of that Mosaic book we find the Lord outlining the blessings that would come to Israel if she obeyed God; but there are also enumerated the curses that would come upon the nation if Israel disobeyed the Lord. Read the Book of Judges to find how Israel repeatedly backslid, and the judgments that fell upon the nation as a result. But its worst crime against Jehovah was the rejection of the Son and Heir, Jesus Christ. Obviously, it follows that its greatest punishment would come upon the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting nation as a result. And it follows that this judgment would find some prophetical foregleam in the Old Testament. Well, both in Leviticus 26 and in Deuteronomy 28, we find definite predictions of judgment that found fulfilment in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
Read carefully Leviticus 26:14-46. Notice the repeated phrase “seven times more” punishment for your sins in verses 18, 21, 24, and 28. The number “seven” stands for completion or fulness, in Scriptures. And all one needs to do is read the account Josephus gives of the terrible judgment that befell the Jews when the Romans besieged the city in his day, to realize that it would not be possible for any worse calamity to befall any people. The desolation predicted by Daniel and repeated by Christ and which was foretold repeatedly by Moses in this chapter in Leviticus found complete fulfilment in A.D. 70. Note Lev. 26:31-35: “I will... bring your sanctuaries unto desolation (v. 31)”; “I will bring the land into desolation (v. 32)”; “Your land shall be desolate” (v. 33). Daniel speaks the same language when he refers to the same event: “The people of the prince that shall come [the Romans, without doubt] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate” (9:26-27). Christ speaks of this “abomination of desolation” and tells those present that this would be seen by the generation then present. (Read Matt. 24:15 with verse 34.) Luke pinpoints this desolation as happening when the armies overcome Jerusalem, which did occur in A.D. 70. (Note Luke 21:20-24.) “These be the days,” says Christ, “of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled” (v. 22). Matthew records Christ’s statement that “upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth... verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation” (23:35-36). And then he adds this significant statement: “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” (v. 38).
Paul, writing to the Thessalonians about the Jewish crucifixion of Christ, adds this: “For the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost” (1 Thess. 2:16). (Read 1 Thess. 2:14-16.)
They filled up the measure of their fathers (Matt. 23:32) by rejecting and crucifying Christ. Paul says the same thing when, after noting their killing “the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men” (1 Thess. 2:15), adds this— “to fill up their sins alway” (v. 16).
Let us look again at the Mosaic predictions of judgment upon the God-defying Jews. Turn to Deuteronomy 28 and read from verse 15 to the end of the chapter. Certainly we have a picture of the fierce Roman siege of Jerusalem from verses 49 to the end of the chapter. The Roman army was composed of soldiers from remote places as faraway as Briton— “from far, from the end of the earth” (v. 49). They were certainly fierce, and regarded not young or old (v. 50). The famished people lost all natural affection and ate their own children (vv. 51-57). This was “Jacob’s trouble” of a certainty. This was the Jewish tribulation of Matthew 24:21.
The disciples of Christ remembered the warnings Christ gave them pertaining to these days of vengeance, and they obeyed his instructions as recorded in such words as “Let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment” (Mark 13:15-16). History says that not one Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem. They did what Christ fore-warned them to do. (Note also Mark’s and Luke’s account of this warning given by Christ of those days: Mark 13:14-23; Luke 21:20-24.)
Even the transportation of the scattered Jews to Egypt to work in the mines is recorded by Moses and was fulfilled accordingly (Duet. 28:68). The markets were so glutted with Jewish captives that no one would buy any more; and they were left to perish.
Have you ever wondered why children refer to Jews as “sheeney”? Well, as much as we abhor their doing so ,Moses foretold that this would be their “byword.” (Note Dent. 28:37 and the word “byword” — “Thou shalt become... a by word.” This word in Hebrew is sheninah. Gentile depreciators abbreviate it to the word “sheeney.” Nothing in either Leviticus or Deuteronomy has failed to find a fulfilment in the past and present history of Jewish tribulation.
If one should ask where the Futurists get their future seven years’ tribulation, which is primarily Jewish in nature, and which is to either immediately precede or follow the second coming of Christ (depending upon whether one is a pre or post-tribulationist), the answer is: the Scofield Bible and its followers. Certainly they cannot find one verse of Scripture to attest their conjectures.
When Jesus told the unbelieving Jews that they were not the true seed of Abraham; but that Satan was their father; and that his deeds would they do, Christ was simply pointing out to them their culminating dastardly deed of murdering him on Golgotha. Read John 8:33-59. Note verse 37: “Ye seek to kill me.” Nationally, these Christ-deniers were of Abraham’s seed; but spiritually they were no kin of his. Jesus added, “If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me... this did not Abraham.” (verses 39-40).
Thus they cried at his trial, “His blood be on us, and on our children” (Matt. 27:25), and this request saw its greatest fulfilment at the time of the great tribulation visited upon them in A.D. 70.
Many parables of Jesus pointed out to his listeners the fact that their rejection of his claims would result in their utter destruction. He warned the Jews who had accused him of casting out devils by the prince of devils, Beelzebub, that every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation (Matt. 12:25-27). In his parable of the unclean spirit and the empty house (vv. 43-45), he said: “The last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation” (v. 45). Speaking of the hypocritical Pharisees, Jesus said: “Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up” (15:13). And this rooting up took place at the time of the A.D. 70 tribulation. Read the parable of the householder and his vineyard (Matthew 21:33-46). “But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance” (v. 38). So, continued Jesus, they caught the son and heir and slew him. And in answer to the Lord’s question as to what the lord of the vineyard would do to the wicked husbandmen, the Jews said: “He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons” (v. 41). Jesus then pointed out to them the prophecy about the rejected stone becoming the head of the corner; and added: “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (v. 43). The chapter closes with the chief priests and Pharisees admitting that Jesus was speaking of them. So, once again, they sought to apprehend Jesus.
In this parable we not only have an unmistakable prediction of judgment upon that generation of unbelieving Christ-rejectors, but we also have another affirmation that their rejection would not lead to a “postponed kingdom.” Instead, the kingdom would be given to the Gentiles who would produce fruit to God’s glory.
In the next chapter of Matthew (22:1-14), we find that the parable of the marriage supper of the king’s son pronounced the same judgment upon the rebellious ones. The rejecters of the king’s invitation “took his servants, and treated them spitefully, and slew them” (v. 6). The result: “When the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies [remember Daniel 9:26-27] and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city” (v. 7).
Nothing that has happened since the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 exceeded the horror of those days. The Jews were sure that the Romans could not take their Holy City. They were certain that their temple could never be invaded. Like Samson, they did not seem to know that their strength had departed from them because of their dreadful treatment of the Son of God. God gave them up to such an extent that natural affection left them, and they devoured their own flesh and blood, as we mentioned before. The Nazis’ slaughter of the Jews in Europe was more extensive in the number of deaths than the A.D. 70 desolation; but nothing before or after that Roman siege compared with it in the treachery and the cannibalism of the Jews themselves. Historians say of that A.D. 70 destruction: “The miseries of the siege and the destruction of life and property were at least as much the work of the Jews themselves as of their conquerors.” This could not be said of any succeeding attack upon them.
Stephen meekly said of his own martyrdom: “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge” (Acts 7:60). But of their murder of Jesus Christ he had a moment before declared with vehemence: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (vv. 51-54). And, said Christ, these murderers would be destroyed. Incidentally, there is not one verse of Scripture that even hints that the kingdom taken from the Jews and given to those who bring forth the fruit thereof, would be taken from the latter some future day and given back to the Jews. They had their day. Today their only hope of enjoying the kingdom of God is by entering it now by the NEW BIRTH. If they remain not in unbelief, writes Paul, they may be saved: they may become part of that body of Christ; that kingdom of God. In Acts 13:45-52 we find the Jews rejecting the message of life, and Paul declaring to them “seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles” (v. 46). The unbelieving Jews chose death instead of life; and the tribulation of A.D. 70 was the culmination of the judgments they had brought upon themselves by reason of their constant denial of God’s way of life. Although we have far from exhausted the subject of Jewish tribulation we will pass on to the next type of scriptural tribulation, namely:
B. The tribulation upon the ungodly (the wrath to come). Before futurism and dispensationalism had produced their theories of the “rapture” before the “Great Tribulation,” the book of Revelation and its judgments upon the ungodly were understood to have both a present and future application. The trumpets, for example, announced judgments upon the ungodly down through history until the last or seventh trumpet heralded the return of Christ and the final judgment. (Note 1 Cor. 15:52 and Paul’s last trump return of Christ; with Rev. 10:7; 11:15.) But the confusing notions of these new schools of interpretation closed the book of Revelation after chapter 3. From chapter 4 on its exhortations, warnings, promises, and pronouncements of judgment were not for the Church at all. They apply, chiefly, to this “seven-year-tribulation-period!”
So the fourfold repeated statement about the book’s message being for the time at hand, was obliterated by this false teaching. (Note Rev. 1: 1— “to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass”; “for the time is at hand,” v. 3). Rev. 22: 6— “the things which must shortly be done”; “for the time is at hand” (v. 10). Its judgments that have befallen nations since the First Advent and which will continue until the Second Advent have been lost sight of by all who accept this futurism. The message of the seals, trumpets, and vials is lost upon that part of the Church which has gullibly accepted this Scofieldism. And this is most tragic!
The tribulation of the ungodly is portrayed throughout Revelation. God’s sealed ones are protected from this outpouring of wrath upon the evildoers. Note Revelation 7:3: “Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
Revelation reveals that the unbeliever is constantly under the judgments of God. Nothing works together for the good of those who despise God, neither now, nor eternally. It’s true that storms do come down upon the Christian, but since he is upon the Rock they do not injure him. In fact, says Christ, not even death can trouble the believer (note Matt. 7:24-29: “It fell not: for it was founded upon a rock” (v. 25). Matt. 10:28: “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul.”).
We who are Christ’s need not fear either present calamities or the future judgment. (Note 1 Thess. 5:1-9: verse 3, “Sudden destruction cometh upon them”; verse 9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”) Paul to the Romans says about the tribulation upon the ungodly, generally, this: Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile” (Rom. 2:9). One may read Peter’s account of the final tribulation judgment upon the ungodly world in 2 Peter 3:3-15. Both in the Old and New Testaments one may read many passages that tell of the tribulation upon the ungodly.
C. The tribulation of the Christian. It is most sickening to hear a preacher lull his people into a comfortable sleep by telling them that they will not “suffer ‘the’ great tribulation.” Communists, who are sent out with the understanding that they will accept suffering for the cause of Bolshevism must feel disgusted when they hear of such sermons. Even the Peace Corps are sent out with the knowledge that they must take hardships in their stride.
“Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war” Christians sing; but it is the strangest kind of war of all time. It’s a war where you will not be injured or scarred in any way; and where you most assuredly will not suffer death for the cause of Christ! It is also a warfare foreign to the pages of Scripture. It’s the kind of battle found only in the marching orders of the dispensationalists.
The Word of God from Genesis to Revelation tells us that the follower of God belongs to the rank of the martyrs. From righteous Abel right down to the last death of a despised Christian in some Congo prison or South American jungle the Church of Jesus Christ is portrayed as a suffering Church.
Paul declares that “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” (2 Tim. 3:12). Of course, one may escape this kind of tribulation by living such a compromising life that no one will ever know he is a Christian. Young Timothy was instructed by the veteran soldier of Christ who daily endured hardness for the Captain of his salvation, who had suffered before him. He wrote to this young recruit: “We both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God” (1 Tim. 4:10); “Fight the good fight of faith” (1 Tim. 6:12); “Be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:8); “Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ” (2 Tim. 2:3); “Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evildoer, even unto bond s” (v. 9); “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us” (v. 12). Read also 2 Timothy 3:10-12; 4:5-8.
Jesus constantly warned his disciples that in the world they must expect tribulation (John 16:33). If men hated and persecuted him, he told them, the world would also hate and persecute them.
Quoting Paul again, he said: “We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22). But he assures the Christian that such tribulation will never separate him from the love of God, even though for the sake of Christ he is “killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter” (Rom. 8:35-36). Even if the “killing all the day long” is nothing but bearing hatred continually for Christ, John makes it clear in his First Epistle (chap. 3) that such hatred constitutes martyrdom of the person hated. Paul told the Thessalonians, “No man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know” (1 Thess. 3:3-4). He also said in his second letter to them, “We ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure... that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer” (2 Thess. 1:4-5). But he also added a word about the tribulation upon the ungodly persecutors: “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you” (v. 6).
Paul tells us that we are to “Glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience” (Rom. 5:3). James (1:2-4) says the same thing: “Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience” (v. 3). Read also 1 Peter 1:6-7: “Though it [your faith] be tried with fire.”
On that day of rewards it will be said of every true and faithful believer, “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Rev. 7:14). For “they overcame him [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death” (Rev. 12:11).
How utterly disgraceful is the unscriptural teaching of some who consider themselves fundamentalists who claim that during their “seven years’ tribulation” that whoever refuses to take the mark of the beast, and is therefore martyred, will thereby win his own reprieve from God’s final judgment and will finally live in eternal bliss! Not the Blood of the Lamb, but their own shed blood will atone for their sins! What blasphemy parades in the name of Bible exposition in our day!

 2008/5/2 14:33


Walter replies to wisevirgin:

We all know that we will go through tribulation while we live on this earth. However, the Great Tribultation, as prophesized in the Bible is not the same tribulation that Christian believers have experienced while living on this earth, ever. The Great Tribulation (The Day of the Lord) is nothing more than [b]God pouring out His wrath on a Christ rejecting world[/b].

[b]My Bible is quite clear that believers in Jesus Christ will not experience the “Wrath to come”:[/b]

1 Thes 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, [b]which delivered us from the wrath to come.[/b]

John 3: 36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: [b]and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.[/b]

Romans 1: 18.[b] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [/b]

Romans 2: 7.[b] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11. For there is no respect of persons with God.[/b]

Romans 5: 8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9. [b] Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM.[/b]

Ephesians 2: 1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[b] 2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/b]

Ephesians 5: 5.[b] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.[/b]

Colossians 3: 5. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6.[b] For which things' sake the WRATH OF GOD cometh on the children of disobedience:[/b]

1 Thessalonians 5: 8. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9. [b] FOR GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH,[/b] but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The non-believers, alive on the earth during the Tribulation, will experience the Wrath of God because they all reject Jesus Christ. All non-believers in Jesus Christ that have lived and died on this earth before the Great Tribulation are now in hell waiting the Great White Throne Judgment. At that Judgment, at the end of time as we know it, all of those attending (those that lived and died before the Great Tribulation, and those that died during the Great Tribulation) will have their works compared to the Books of the Lord, the Bible. They will all be weighed by their own works, and will all be found lacking, and will be sent to into the Lake of Fire, that was prepared for Satan and his fallen angels. They will be in a continuous state of wrath for eternity.

All believers in Jesus Christ, as Savior and Lord, are promised their new, Resurrected bodies, along with all prior believers in Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Seed of the Woman) that have lived and died before us since the World began, and we will be raised to heaven, to be with Him forever:
1 Thes 4:12-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; John 14:2-3

The rapture will coincide with the "Day of the Lord"
1 Thess 5:2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

At the second coming, all believers will come with Christ, and be with Him when He puts his foot on the mount of Olives. Christ comes with his Angels and with His Saints.

Zechariah 14

1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come,[b] AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.[/b]



 2008/5/6 2:14

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


The bible plainly says that Satan shall "make war with the saints" during the tribulation. Even if these were so-called "tribulation saints", they would still be saved by the same grace in Christ that we are, and therefore be subject to the same global outpouring of judgment which many think is inconsistent with God's forgiveness of Christians.

Either you must believe that no one is saved during the tribulation, or you must admit that your views about God's wrath on believers are inconsistent.

The error flows from your misunderstanding of the two different Greek terms translated "wrath".

One refers to temporal calamities, such as earthquakes, fires, and persecutions, which Christians presently face as a bi-product of living in this world. These things, though terrible judgments upon unbelievers, "work together for good to those who love God, who are the called according to His purpose."

The other term means His one-for-one judicial wrath which will be poured upon reprobates forever in hell. This is what Christ is returning to do, and what we are spared from.

Blessings to you all, for God's sake,

 2008/5/6 6:01Profile

 Re: The "Saints"

To theopenlife from Walter:

[b]The Bible tells us that there is more than one Resurrection for the saved, and ALL are part of the "Firstfruits of the Resurrection", started by Christ, "The Firstfruits of the Resurrection", when He resurrected from the dead, two thousand years ago. Jesus Christ rose from the dead on Sunday, the 17th of Nissan, the day of the celebration of the "Feast of Firstfruits".[/b]

[b]Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.[/b]
1 Cor 15:20-23
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;[u][b] afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.[/b][/u]

[b]We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”.[/b]

Romans 8:23-25
23. And not only they,[b] but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.(waiting for our New Resurrected Body!)[/b] 24, For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

[b]When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him![/b]

James 1:18
18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures

[b]This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:[/b]

1 Cor 15:52-57
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[b]This is another description of the Rapture.
1 Thes 4:13-17
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/b]

[b]This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways! [/b]
1 Cor. 13:9-12
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 John 3:2
2.[b] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear (at the Rapture), we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure[/b]

[b][color=660000]Next, we find a description of the Lord'S SECOND COMING-- coming back to the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that would be the resurrected Church, described above, from the RAPTURE). . This clarifies for us that there is more than one resurrection (Firstfruits of the Resurrection). First, the rapture and resurrection, that occurs before anit-christ is revealed -BEFORE THE TRIBULATON, described above, and then another resurrection of the souls of those that have become believers during the Tribulation, that have been be-headed by the antichrist, AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION:[/color][/b]

Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:[b] AND THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.[/b]
6.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7.But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

[b][color=660000]This describes the resurrection from the dead of the people that were not saved before the Tribulation (Jews and Gentiles), that went through the Great Tribulation and became believers in Christ (saved) and were beheaded during the tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation Christ throws Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years and judges the beheaded believers (described above). This is a judgment of rewards, not punishment. They also receive their new Resurrected Bodies, like Christs, so that they will rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years. The judgment of punishment is the Great White Throne Judgment mentioned in Rev. 20:11 and is for all non-believers.[/color][/b]
Rev 20:1-6
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: [b]AND I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM THAT WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. 5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/b]

[b][color=660000]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.




 2008/5/6 10:07

 Re: Matthew 24:21

What we desire chiefly to establish at this point is that when Christ spoke the words found in Matthew 24:21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be", He was warning the disciples of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, and was letting them know in advance (what the event abundantly confirmed) that the sufferings of the besieged people, and the horrors and atrocities of that awful time, would be without parallel in the history of the world, past or future. It was needful to impress this upon His people of that day, to the end that they should not delay their "flight" when the sign He gave them should appear. The prophecy was, as we have already seen, exceedingly practical. Its purpose was to save the lives of the Lord's own people at a time of extremist danger and distress. And we have only to glance at the three accounts of this utterance of the Lord to perceive that His warning concerning the great tribulation was given for the purpose that His own people might, through acting upon His words, escape from it. We shall call attention to this in detail; but in passing would just ask our readers to observe that the greatness of the tribulation was mentioned as the reason why the disciples were to pray that their "flight be not in the winter nor on the Sabbath day" (#Mt 24:20,21). Those words clearly confine the application of the prophecy to a time preceding the dispersion of the Jews.

Let it be understood then that we are not making any statements in regard to persecutions, tribulations and wrath, which are or may be yet in the future. That there will be such is certain. What we are asserting at this point is that the "great tribulation" whereof our Lord spoke to His disciples when He was on Mt. Olivet, and which He called "the tribulation of those days" (#Mt 24:29), was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70. And we would say that it is most needful, in order to the understanding of other prophecies, that this fact be grasped.

The proof is ample. Indeed the scriptures already cited make it plain that the wrath, which God was then about to pour out upon those who had both crucified His Son and had also rejected His mercy offered to them in the gospel, was "wrath to the uttermost," that all things which had been predicted of that nature were to fall upon that generation. But the clearest proof of all is to be found by simply reading, side by side, the three accounts which God has given us of this great prophecy. It never occurred to the writer to do this until a few months before these papers were written (it was in the summer of 1921). But when he did so he was beyond measure astonished that he had been for so long a time blinded to a fact which lies plainly revealed upon the surface of the Scriptures.

Briefly stated, what the writer found, and what anyone can see by making the same comparison, is:--

1. That the words of Luke 21:20-24, beginning, "And WHEN YE SHALL SEE Jerusalem encompassed with armies, then know that THE DESOLATION thereof is nigh," refer to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies under Titus (no expositor would dispute this);

2. That the words found in the corresponding part of Matthew's account, beginning with the words, "WHEN THEREFORE YE SHALL SEE" (#Mt 24:15-22; see also #Mr 13:14-20) refer to precisely the same event as that spoken of in (#Lu 21:20-24.)

We have said that, so far as we know, it is agreed by all expositors that the words recorded by Luke refer to the then approaching destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. But a careful examination of the account given by Matthew will show that, not only does it manifestly refer to the same destruction of Jerusalem, but it contains details which clearly show that our Lord was speaking of an event then close at hand.
The "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world," &c. (#Mt 24:21), is the same as the "affliction" (the same word in the original as "tribulation") "such as was not since the beginning of the creation which God created" (#Mr 13:19), and as "the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled," the "great distress in the land, and wrath "upon this people" (#Lu 21:22,23).

In all three accounts are mentioned the same woes, "to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days," and the same directions for instant flight are given. But in Matthew's account only we have the Lord's instruction to His disciples to pray that their flight be not in the winter nor on the Sabbath day. Those words show clearly that He was speaking of a time when the stringent Rabbinical rules concerning the distance that might be traversed on the Sabbath day would be still in force. That remark fixes the time with certainty as previous to the destruction of Jerusalem. Those strict Rabbinical rules have not been in force for centuries; and there is no reason to suppose that they will ever be revived. The words do not, of course, imply that Christ's own disciples would be bound by those rules even then; but so long as they were in Judea they would have been hampered by them in their flight, should that take place on the Sabbath.

In the light, therefore, of this comparison of scripture with scripture, we think it plain that the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:14 was that unparalleled calamity, with its unspeakable sufferings, which befell the city and people in A.D. 70.

In the history of "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus we have a detailed account, written by an eye witness, of the almost unbelievable sufferings of the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem. To this account we will refer later on; but we wish to state at this point that the distresses of those who were hemmed in by the sudden appearance of the Roman armies were peculiar in this respect, namely, that what they endured was mainly self-inflicted. That is to say, they suffered far more from cruelties and tortures inflicted upon one another, than from the common enemy outside the walls. In this strange feature of the case it was surely "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time" (#Da 12:1).

What went on within the distressed city calls to mind the words of Isaiah:

"Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel (the food) of the fire. No man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand and shall be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand and not be satisfied; they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm. Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh. For all this His anger is not turned away, but His wrath is poured out still" (#Isa 9:19-21).

 2008/5/11 0:16

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