Poster | Thread | PaulWest Member

Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
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I have seen short clips of chinese rolling on the floor, laughing, crying and all other kinds of manifestations. This 'evil' has penetrated a most hungry society, China, and may be poised for a disastrous fall.
Watchman Nee was writing and warning about this phenomena even back in the early 1920's from what he saw at the meetings in Shanghai and Foochow. The uncontrollable laughter, the loud choruses sung over and over and over again, working the people up and creating an atmosphere ripe for "power" preaching, running and jumping and laughing and all other types of soulish manifestations. _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2008/5/1 11:50 | Profile | davym Member

Joined: 2007/5/22 Posts: 326
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It is apparently real important to some that charismatics fail or are cancelled out.
Fail in what sense?
If a charismatic is preaching the pure undiluted gospel and winning souls for Christ then I'm 100% behind them. If they're laying up treasures for themselves in this world then they've already failed.
As I see it these charismatic movements have never had as much money as they currently have. They claim 'revival' yet all around I see spiritual deterioration. When I witness on the street many people point to these movements as lunatic asylums. My belief is that they work AGAINST worldwide evangelism and not for.
_________________ David
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| 2008/5/1 11:55 | Profile |
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Even C&MA leader A. W. Tozer also spoke positively of holy laughter:
"Now I say that worship is subject to degrees of perfection and intensity. There have been those who worshiped God to the place where they were in ecstasies of worship. I once saw a man kneel at an altar, taking Communion. Suddenly he broke into holy laughter. This man laughed until he wrapped his arms around himself as if he was afraid he would bust just out of sheer delight in the presence of Almighty God. . . . So worship is capable of running from the very simple to the most intense and sublime."
So many great men of God experienced Holy Laughter.
Aren't you glad not all stifle the Holy Spirit?
We revere "great" men of God as tho they were Saints in the same sense that Catholics have their Saints. I have the utmost respect for men like Tozer and Spurgeon, etc.
But has it ever occurred to you they could have been wrong?? This is the 3rd time that I have seen you refer to Tozer on this issue... as if he were scripture.
However, as of yet... you offer absolutely NO scripture to back your position. Just quotes from other people. Well, I dont care what people have to say about, I only care what scripture has to say about it.
Krispy |
| 2008/5/1 12:35 | | psalm1 Member

Joined: 2007/1/30 Posts: 1230
| Re: | | Quote: " as of yet... you offer absolutely NO scripture to back your position. Just quotes from other people. Well, I dont care what people have to say about, I only care what scripture has to say about it."
neither did john the revelator
Mayby nobody had yet seen what he saw. Can God do a new thing without our permission? |
| 2008/5/1 12:56 | Profile | psalm1 Member

Joined: 2007/1/30 Posts: 1230
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"When I witness on the street many people point to these movements as lunatic asylums. My belief is that they work AGAINST worldwide evangelism and not for."
Do you also go by what"many street people" say to form your other opinions?
Any one used of God will be criticized by the world. If the world loves you something is missing.
What in the world will you do if God shows up at an SI conference of some church in your area.
If you continue to malign and criticise moves of God.....do you really think God can bless you?
It is friends family and Christians that typically come against any move of God.
The ones willing to permit the Holy Spirit access will be the easy targets. When the Holy Spirit comes in power not all can handle it. So they manifest. I have seen his over and over. Then here comes the christian police to smear the whole thing. It is impossible to have a move of God with zero manifestations.
The very ones crying foul are the very ones overemphasizing the manifestations.
It is a mathematical equation. God shows up. Certain people manifest. Most are too overwhelmed by Gods presence to care about the person next to them. But always the"police" will be there to overemphasise the manifestations. And now with utube and willing "ministers" the "policing errors" are on steroids. But they unwittingly shoot down any chance for God to do something in their midst.
David
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| 2008/5/1 13:03 | Profile |
| Re: Giggles and a roll in the hay. Is this why the Saviour bled? | |
I kind of look at laughter as a human response, not a divine act. If I want to laugh, as the holy Spirit moves upon me, I certainly have the freedom to. It is my response to my Creator as he tends to me. I may respond, though, with tears, or intense sobriety. God is still God, and I am still responding to Him. Surely, at one time or another, all of us have had an emotion in the Presence of the Lord above the deadpan "amen."
"There will be shouts of joy, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands."[upon his return; Isaiah.
When we say that Laughter is a sign that a man carries revival, or that mass laughter is that, then we err. The focus drifts from His visitation upon us, to our response as the vindicating factor He visits. This opens the door to carnal opportunists who, like Bar-jesus, seek to profit by manipulating the church and the innocent as to be seen as men of God for profit for themselves, Privilege, power and prestige are their gods, that also prosper them, all at the expense of the souls that are thereby deceived.
These are , as a brother in a previous post declared, nothing but a circus, a CARNIVAL, that exhibits symbols that are like the reactions people have when God sometimes comes. They are nothing but manifestations of soul powers and hypnotic suggestion.
Jesus spoke of signs and wonders FOLLOWING the true apostolic preaching and Gospel of Love and Grace.
Where are they here? How many blind eyes are opened? How many cripples walk? Better yet, how many are truely saved, repented, and received NEW LIFE by being born again??
These are signs that Jesus has walked through. Revived souls take their revival with them for life, and exhibit it by changed and bright lives filled with mercy and love until death, not just a roll in the hay with hee-haws and giggles. |
| 2008/5/1 13:22 | | psalm1 Member

Joined: 2007/1/30 Posts: 1230
| Re: | | What is it about men that lean towards attributing miracles to the devil? As if he can do and is more powerful than God?
I think maybe some perspective might be in order?
God is big The devil is a wimp.
Elijah understood this.
If the devil shows up and someone manifests thats ok If the Holy Spirit shows up now he can ONLY be the devil?
Do you really think you can take it.....to be in Gods manifest presence,when men couldn't even stand to be in the presence of angels?
It not ok with you that the power of God makes people manifest.
And then you smear the Holy Spirit by saying the devil MADE them do it.
It not ok with you for God to have power and when his power and purity comes up against sinful man they shake and tremble and fall and roll and do weird things?
They cant take it so they react. I can promise you ,you cant take it either and neither can I.
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| 2008/5/1 13:26 | Profile |
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PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
I have seen short clips of chinese rolling on the floor, laughing, crying and all other kinds of manifestations. This 'evil' has penetrated a most hungry society, China, and may be poised for a disastrous fall.
Watchman Nee was writing and warning about this phenomena even back in the early 1920's from what he saw at the meetings in Shanghai and Foochow. The uncontrollable laughter, the loud choruses sung over and over and over again, working the people up and creating an atmosphere ripe for "power" preaching, running and jumping and laughing and all other types of soulish manifestations.
This is not just to Paul but to all! I know most here don't appreciate psychology but this phenomenon is called classical conditioning; Pavlov's dogs made it famous. Classical conditioning is getting the people to sing "the loud choruses sung over and over and over again, working the people up and creating an atmosphere ripe." If companies hire psychologists to create an illusion that appeals to our senses, why wouldn't churches? Apply the following to unscrupulous churches...
Classical Conditioning is the type of learning made famous by Pavlov's experiments with dogs. The gist of the experiment is this: Pavlov presented dogs with food, and measured their salivary response (how much they drooled). Then he began ringing a bell just before presenting the food. At first, the dogs did not begin salivating until the food was presented. After a while, however, the dogs began to salivate when the sound of the bell was presented. They learned to associate the sound of the bell with the presentation of the food. As far as their immediate physiological responses were concerned, the sound of the bell became equivalent to the presentation of the food.
Classical conditioning is used by trainers for two purposes: To condition (train) autonomic responses, such as the drooling, producing adrenaline, or reducing adrenaline (calming) without using the stimuli that would naturally create such a response; and, to create an association between a stimulus that normally would not have any effect on the animal and a stimulus that would.
Now, all that being said. The first reason (to m) to question this is that some people have practically made a religion out of "holy laughter." That in and of itself should cause alarm. My filter for anything in the realm of christianity is: is it mainstream? If it's a bestseller or every one's flocking to it... red flags should up EVERYWHERE! But they're not...
It's ok to question authority! Gideon did and he did it again! It was God who told him when to stop questioning. Let us question what is going on in Christendom today until God tells us to stop!! |
| 2008/5/1 13:29 | | psalm1 Member

Joined: 2007/1/30 Posts: 1230
| Re: | | Quote; "Classical conditioning is getting the people to sing "the loud choruses sung over and over and over again, working the people up and creating an atmosphere ripe." If companies hire psychologists to create an illusion that appeals to our senses, why wouldn't churches? Apply the following to unscrupulous churches...
Classical Conditioning is the type of learning made famous by Pavlov's experiments with dogs. The gist of the experiment is this: Pavlov presented dogs with food, and measured their salivary response (how much they drooled). Then he began ringing a bell just before presenting the food. At first, the dogs did not begin salivating until the food was presented. After a while, however, the dogs began to salivate when the sound of the bell was presented. They learned to associate the sound of the bell with the presentation of the food. As far as their immediate physiological responses were concerned, the sound of the bell became equivalent to the presentation of the food."
This is exactly how most people see the church. They see us as brainwashed.
Again this exact thing can be applied to the folly of the church police.
They start with a premise "miracles are so rare and anything supernatural is of thee devil' They dont want the intent of their heart exposed so they attack other camps,calling it "berrean"
"we just want to be right on" they tell you.
Lets take speaking in tongues.
I speak in tongues. Nothing to do with the devil.
Now some one comes along,never spoke in tongues but hangs out with those that say"thats the devil" and so for me to "convince this man of anything is futile. His mind has been conditioned by false assumptions. They heap their teachers to themselves under every premise but God.
tongues came from heaven to man but man comes from man to other men to convince all that tongues are of the flesh and it is the devil that provides this power. It doesnt matter if it came from God or not. It is classical conditioning of their teachers that has squelched something Ordained of God.
Ironically it is these police that are the ones to overemphasize the manifestations and miracles.
Look at the bible . is it JUST a book of manifestations and miracles?
You watch someone is going to say this. |
| 2008/5/1 14:14 | Profile |
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What is it about men that lean towards attributing miracles to the devil? As if he can do and is more powerful than God?
Oh, I dont know... maybe [i]scripture[/i]?? For instance: [b]Matthewn 24:24[/b] [i]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.[/i]
... and just make sure we understand it, it's repeated again for us: [b]Mark 13:22[/b] [i]For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show [b]signs and wonders[/b], to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[/i]
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God is big The devil is a wimp.
One thing the Charismatic movement has been very effective in is dumbing theology down to bumper sticker snippets... like what I just quoted.
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If the devil shows up and someone manifests thats ok If the Holy Spirit shows up now he can ONLY be the devil?
That is a grotesque misrepresentation of what I and many of the brethren have said. We never said that, not once. Instead we caution people to weigh what they see and experience with scripture. And you mock us for it, and put words in our mouths. Thats dishonest, and it makes you a liar.
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Do you really think you can take it.....to be in Gods manifest presence,when men couldn't even stand to be in the presence of angels?
It not ok with you that the power of God makes people manifest.
You do not even understand the basics of scripture.
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And then you smear the Holy Spirit by saying the devil MADE them do it.
Exactly what do you base this on? Certainly not scripture because you have [b]never[/b] once ever on this forum used scripture to back up anything that you have said. Shame on you.
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It not ok with you for God to have power and when his power and purity comes up against sinful man they shake and tremble and fall and roll and do weird things?
According to scripture... the result of God power and purity coming upon a sinful man is [b]REPENTENCE[/b]... not barking like a dog, or laughing uncontrollably.
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They cant take it so they react.
I couldnt take it... so I begged God to forgive me of my sins, and I repented.
You, sir, need to study your Bible.
As soon as you can back up all your accusations, condemnations, proclamation and exhortations with scripture... well, actually, at that point, you'll agree with me! :-P
Krispy |
| 2008/5/1 15:07 | |
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