[b]Luke 23:34[/b] [i]Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.[/i]

Just something to ponder. When those who crucified Christ stood before God, did He hold it against them, or were they forgiven, as Christ requested of the Father?

Obviously if they had not become born from above before their death they were condemned anyway because of all the other sin in their life... but were they forgiven of this sin?

It's interesting to think about because later in Acts when Stephen was on trial and then stoned he point the finger squarely at the Jewish religious leaders.

Krispy

In the very least, the question recognizes there is a difference between the sins of the Romans and the sins of the Jews.

_________________
Mike Compton

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 [u]Who both killed the Lord Jesus[/u], and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, [u]to fill up their sins alway[/u]: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. (I Thess 2)

I think the forgiveness Jesus spoke of was that they had not been immediately struck dead for their sin. This was the mercy extended to them, as in all cases of men that go on unrepentant. I.e. That God suffered them to live another moment that perchance they might repent and be saved. But understand that they were treasuring up for themselves wrath against the day of wrath.

The footsteps of judgment were closing fast at the time of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. It would only be a few decades until Titus would destroy Jerusalem and plow the Temple grounds under as if it were a farmers field. People would soon be starving to death and Josephus would write of a famine so great a mother cooked her own offspring for food. These things are detailed in part in Matthew 24.

The great sin of the people was the ongoing sin of the sons of men; that they forever seek to stop the voice of God in the earth. The silenced Steven as he was a 'voice' of God in their ears. They stopped their ears and they killed him. they were teachers of the law and word of God- but were contrary to the voice of God in the earth. This is the great battle of the ages. Satan works to silence God. He does it in many ways. He moved Herod to shut up John in prison. He moved Cain to slay Abel. He moved Pharaoh to kill the male babies in Egypt. Why? He knew that a deliverer was coming based on what God told Abraham when he was under the horror of great darkness. So he moved Pharaoh to snuff out that 'voice' even before it had life.

The bottom line is, men love darkness rather than light (John 3). Some want to put the Light under a bushel. Others want to put it out completely. Some were content to put a vail over it. But what makes the sin unforgivable is that the 'Light' is what causes a sinner to come to godly sorrow. It is the key ingredient to a "Woe is me for I am undone" experience. Jesus was a great Light. Paul was a Light. Steven was a Light. Abel was a Light. John Baptist was a Light. On and on. This is what the enemy hates. One can be forgiven for snuffing out a Light- but they cannot come to true repentance without the Light.

Paul put out many Lights. Shut some up in prison. But once he responded rightly to God on the Demascus road he found TRUE forgiveness and Everlasting Life. God overlooked his sins even as Steven requested. But if Paul does not turn to Christ how can he be saved? The 'Father forgive them" in my mind was a temporary stay of God's hand of judgment with a possible future repentance and faith as the purpose. If they turn not... He will whet His sword... etc. etc.

_________________
Robert Wurtz II

Amen RobertW. good insight.

Paul was chosen even before he was born into this world.

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Paul was born when he was old. Plus no second death.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Are we resurrected? Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Has He Come? 1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Are we still in part?

How can we be made perfect?

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

"Christ in you the Hope of Glory"

In Christ: Phillip

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,


Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mar 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luk 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

How is He betrayed? As it was written. Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

By not believing He truly is the Son of God, the only way to the Father and Salvation and new life in Him, by which can only come from the Father. By thus we negate the Cross, and so we as Judas also betray the Son of God and woe to him. Believe that the Father is in Him and He in us.

In Christ; Phillip

_________________
Phillip

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Under the Levitical economy God required that atonement should be made for sins of ignorance. "If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the Lord; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the Lord a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering: And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him" (Lev. 5:15,16). And again we read, "And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the Lord hath spoken unto Moses, even all that the Lord hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the Lord commanded Moses, and hence-forward among your generations; Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savor unto the Lord, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their ignorance" (Num. 15: 22-25). It is in view of such scriptures as these that we find David prayed, "Cleanse Thou me from secret faults" (Psa. 19:12).

Sin is always sin in the sight of God whether we are conscious of it or not. Sins of ignorance need atonement just as truly as do conscious sins. God is Holy, and He will not lower His standard of righteousness to the level of our ignorance. Ignorance is not innocence. As a matter of fact ignorance is more culpable now than it was in the days of Moses. We have no excuse for our ignorance. God has clearly and fully revealed His will. The Bible is in our hands, and we cannot plead ignorance of its contents except to condemn our laziness. God has spoken, and by His Word we shall be judged.

And yet the fact remains that we are ignorant of many things, and the fault and blame are ours. And this does not minimize the enormity of our guilt. Sins of ignorance need the Divine forgiveness as our Lord’s prayer here plainly shows. Learn then how high is God’s standard, how great is our need, and praise Him for an Atonement of infinite sufficiency, which cleanseth from all sin.

"They know not what they do." This does not mean that the enemies of Christ were ignorant of the fact of His crucifixion. They did know full well that they had cried out "Crucify Him." They did know full well that their vile request had been granted them by Pilate. They did know full well that He had been nailed to the Tree for they were eye-witnesses of the crime. What then did our Lord mean when He said, "They know not what they do?" He meant they were ignorant of the enormity of their crime. They "knew not" that it was the Lord of Glory they were crucifying. The emphasis is not on "They know not" but on "they know not what they do."

This Cross-intercession of Christ for His enemies met with a marked and definite answer. The answer is seen in the conversion of the three thousand souls on the Day of Pentecost. I base this conclusion on Acts 3:17 where the apostle Peter says, "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers." It is to be noted that Peter uses the word "ignorance" which corresponds with our Lord’s "they know not what they do." Here then is the Divine explanation of the three thousand converted under a single sermon. It was not Peter’s eloquence which was the cause but the Saviour’s prayer. And, Christian reader, the same is true of us. Christ prayed for you and me long before we believed in Him. Turn to John 17:20 for proof. "Neither pray I for these (the apostles) alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me thro’ their word" (John 17:20).

It only remains for us to add a word on the blessed Completeness of Divine forgiveness. Many of God’s people are unsettled and troubled upon this point. They understand how that all the sins they had committed before they received Christ as their Saviour have been forgiven, but oftentimes they are not clear concerning the sins which they commit after they have been born again. Many suppose it is possible for them to sin away the pardon which God had bestowed upon them. They suppose that the Blood of Christ dealt with their past only, and that so far as the present and the future are concerned, they have to take care of that themselves. But of what value would be a pardon which might be taken away from me at any time? Surely there can be no settled peace when my acceptance with God and my going to Heaven is made to depend upon my holding on to Christ, or my obedience and faithfulness.

Blessed be God, the forgiveness which He bestows covers all sins — past, present and future. Fellow-believer, did not Christ bear your "sins" in His own body on the Tree? And were not all your sins future sins when He died? Surely, for at that time you had not been born, and so had not committed a single sin. Very well then: Christ bore your "future" sins as truly as your past ones. What the Word of God teaches is that the unbelieving soul is brought out of the place of unforgiveness into the place to which forgiveness attaches. Christians are a forgiven people. Says the Holy Spirit: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Rom. 4:8)1 The believer is in Christ, and there sin will never again be imputed to us. This is our place or position before God. In Christ is where He beholds us. And because I am in Christ I am completely and eternally forgiven, so much so that never again will sin be laid to my charge as touching my salvation, even though I were to remain on earth a hundred years. I am out of that place for evermore. Listen to the testimony of Scripture: "And you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He (God) quickened together with Him (Christ), having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col. 2:13). Mark the two things which are here united (and what God hath joined together let not man put asunder) — my union with a risen Christ is connected with my forgiveness! If then my life is "hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3), then I am forever out of the place where imputation of sin applies. Hence it is written, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1) — how could there be if "all trespasses" have been forgiven? None can lay anything to the charge of God’s elect (Rom. 8:33). Christian reader, join the writer in praising God because we are eternally forgiven everything.*

*It should be added by way of explanation, that it is the judicial aspect we have dealt with. Restorative forgiveness — which is the bringing back again into communion of a sinning believer — dealt with in I John 1:9 — is another matter altogether. (by AWP)


None of the sins of none of those who are not in Christ have ever nor ever will be taken away in the Christ-less and Grace-less hell they will be consigned to,confined to and tormented in for eternal ages for sinning against the Eternally Holy One.

Rom. 4:7,8 "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin."


Psalms 32
1 ¶ A Psalm of David. A Contemplation. Blessed is he whose transgression is lifted, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man to whom Jehovah does not charge iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, then my bones became old, through my howling all day.
4 For by day and by night Your hand was heavy on me; my sap was turned into the droughts of summer. Selah.
5 I confessed my sin to You, and I have not hidden my iniquity; I said, I will confess over my transgression to Jehovah; and You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6 On account of this let every godly one pray to You, at a time of finding; surely, when great floods come they will not reach him.
7 ¶ You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble; You surround me with songs of deliverance. Selah.
8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you should go; I will counsel you, My eye shall be on you.
9 Be not like the horse, like the mule, with no understanding; with bit and bridle his gear to be held in, that they do not come near you.
10 Many sorrows are to the wicked; but he who trusts in Jehovah, mercy embraces him.
11 Be glad in Jehovah and rejoice, you righteous ones; and all the upright in heart, shout for joy.

A great post, Robert W!

I would just like to add one thing. You stated:

"Why? He knew that a deliverer was coming based on[b] what God told Abraham[/b] when he was under the horror of great darkness. So he moved Pharaoh to snuff out that 'voice' even before it had life."

That is totally true.[b] However, Satan knew a deliverer was coming in the beginning, in the Garden of Eden when God prophesized the following[/b]:

"14.[b][color=0033FF] And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise HIS HEEL.[/color][/b]" Genesis 3:14-15 KJV

Women do not have seed, men have seed. The "Seed" of the Woman was to be Christ, who would bruise Satans head. (The venom of serpents resides in their heads). Satan would bruise the heel of the "Seed of the Woman" (Jesus Christ). During crucifixion, the heel of the one dying on the cross becomes extremely bruised. The reason is that the person dying on the cross is actually suffocating to death. He has to continually push against the cross with the heel of the foot that is nailed next to the cross, in order to continue breathing.

Thus, Adam and Eve knew of the coming Messiah. They told their children of the coming Messiah. Abel believed them (and thus believed God), and Cain didn't believe.[b] We have the same problem today with our own Children, don't we?[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter