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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Intense4Him…

Quote:

I humbly disagree with you and all who hold to this passivist view. To think like this is pure human reasoning. Did God not say in Isaiah 55.9-10, For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. I humbly ask to all who believe this, How do you know WHAT the Lord will require of His Bride? We don’t.

To believe it’s an all or nothing thing about the Bride is presumption on the part of our human understanding. No matter how we study, the way of the Bereans or whatever, we still only see darkly as if through a glass; we don’t see the WHOLE entire picture. I don’t believe the Bride will be destroyed if she is here. I believe it will be her finest shining hour.


I feel that this is an unfair and inaccurate statement. First of all, it isn’t “passivism” to believe that God has not appointed His Bride to suffer His wrath (I Thessalonians 5:1-9). Secondly, this is not “human reasoning.” In fact, I see it as being similar to the Bereans’ example (so often quoted yet so seldom practiced). After searching through the Scriptures, we find multiple examples of God protecting His people from His judgment (as someone already pointed out [I think it was Krispy?]). God rescued the Israelites from the plagues, Lot from fire and brimstone, Noah from a great flood, and many others from suffering through His wrath on Earth. Sure, the people of God have always endured the tribulations of mankind and Satan. But the wrath of God is an entirely different matter.

The time of “great tribulation” (more accurately, “God’s wrath”) will be terrible. Why? Because mankind will persecute the Body of Christ? Because Satan will persecute the Church? The Church has ALWAYS endured through tribulations and persecutions. The Old Testament prophets were killed. The New Testament believers were beheaded, crucified and stoned. The early believers were fed to lions in crowded arenas. Fox’s Book of Martyrs contains powerful examples of how believers endured gruesome torture for their faith. In later times, believers were even burned alive. During the Inquisition, true believers thought that the pope was the Antichrist because of his attempt to slaughter non-Catholics.

Today, Western believers (and even many Eastern believers) live in relative ease in the sense that they do not face death for the faith. However, there is still great persecution occurring throughout many places in the East. Christians face terrible torture and death at the hands of evil men in North Korea, China, Vietnam, Iran, Cuba and many other closed nations. A few years ago in Colorado, a high school student was shot in the head after a captive asked her, “[i]Do you believe in Jesus[/i]?”

While these persecutions and tribulations are terrible, they are nothing compared to what awaits the world when God pours out HIS wrath upon the entire Earth. In an instant, an entire third of the Earth will burn – killing every living thing. In another instant, a third of the life in (and on) the sea will die. This “hour” of tribulation that will come upon the entire Earth will be horrendous. Why? It will not because of the wrath of man or Satan. It will be terrifying because of the wrath of God – at which point men will try to hide themselves from such things.

The timing of the Lord’s return is a secret. It is known only to the Father (and not even revealed to the Son). Yet we know that the days preceding the return of the Lord will be similar to the days of Noah. Yes, those days were evil – but not because of wild terrors of the devil. Jesus said that those days were filled with LIFE AS USUAL. People will be eating and drinking, getting married and divorced, etc… But as in the days of Noah, destruction will come upon the entire Earth SUDDENLY. Yet those few souls (Noah and Family) who kept the word were rescued from such wrath.

Interestingly, Jesus spoke of such rescue directed toward the Church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10: “[i]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/i]” It is interesting to note that the Lord said that He would keep us [u]FROM[/u] the hour of temptation (rather than [u]IN[/u] that hour). Yet the time of this “hour of great trial” doesn’t seem like it will resemble the days of Noah before the flood. It seems more like it will resemble nothing that has ever transpired upon the Earth.

It is also interesting to consider that Jesus does not know the day or hour of His return. Yet most Biblical scholars (pre, mid and post tribbers) feel that the “hour of tribulation” will last approximately seven years. Now, I feel certain that Jesus knows how to count. If he saw the beginning of the “hour” – wouldn’t he be able to ascertain the timing of his return? Then why would it be withheld from Him?

I have always felt that the coming of the Lord might resemble the ancient customs of a Hebrew wedding. The groom became engaged through a betrothal. Afterward, the groom went to “prepare a place” for his bride. Once all things were completed and the father was satisfied, his blessing was granted. The bride didn’t know when this would happen. She simply had to be ready at all times. The groom would often come suddenly to take his bride to a wedding at the place that he had prepared for her (and would be followed by a huge feast). This is similar to the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew chapter 25 in which five foolish virgins were unprepared to attend the wedding and the feast and were left behind.

A belief in the “rapture” (or “catching up” before the time of wrath) usually teaches that life will go on as normal (just as in the days of Noah). Then SUDDENLY, the Lord will come for His Bride as a “thief in the night” (when one will be taken and another left). Following this is a period of GREAT TRIBULATION (in which persecution will be poured upon those who miss the “escape” but subsequently turn to Christ). Satan will then realize that his time is short and do his worst. Most importantly, God will pour out [u]His[/u] wrath – stored up for all of human history and the time of His grace – upon an entire planet that rejected His grace.

I am not saying that this is undoubtedly the truth. I am not even saying that I believe that there will [u]certainly[/u] be a “sudden escape” provided by Christ before the time of wrath is poured out upon the Earth. The truth is that I just don’t know for sure. The Word seems to be suspiciously silent in the exact timetable, definitions and calendar of such things. However, I am certainly open to this “escape” as a possibility. I also think that it is quite unwise to openly dismiss it as a “false doctrine” (or as Brother Tom called it, a “LIE”). I don’t think that anyone can state such a thing with 100% certainty.

I fear that we often discuss this issue like those who questioned the resurrected Lord about when he was going to "restore again the kingdom of Israel" (Acts 1:6). Jesus replied, "[i]It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.[/i]" (Acts 1:7-8). God has simply chosen to keep some things from us -- including the exact timing and manner of His return.

Like Keith Green said, we should “pray for pre-trib and be prepared for post-trib.” I would go so far as to add: “[i]Be prepared for BOTH[/i].” We should be prepared to be translated out of this world suddenly and in the twinkling of an eye (“at an hour that we think not”). We should live like we are already so detached from this world that we are ready to depart at any time. We should be like that Jewish bride who is already prepared for her groom’s sudden taking. We should also be prepared to suffer the persecutions and tribulations of this fleeting life – regardless of whether such things come from the hands of men, the devil or the judgments of God. Regardless of how the end comes, my everything still belongs to Him.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/4/13 0:42Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Hi Destiny,
Correct me if I am wrong but after the saints return with Jesus to do battle with the Antichrist, the scene and events following take place on earth.
Rev 21
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

in your sequence of events, would it not place the wedding feast on earth?
Remember also that in Rev 19 the marriage supper has happened and she is no longer the bride but the wife.


David

 2008/4/13 1:31Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Intense4him said,
To believe it’s an all or nothing thing about the Bride is presumption on the part of our human understanding. No matter how we study, the way of the Bereans or whatever, we still only see darkly as if through a glass; we don’t see the WHOLE entire picture. I don’t believe the Bride will be destroyed if she is here. I believe it will be her finest shining hour.


I also think it is presumption to think that Jesus comes for and with his bride at the same time.

In the rapture everyone is there except the believers playing games and living nominal christian lives.The dead in Christ and the 5 wise virgins go on to heaven and later the marriage supper

And meanwhile on earth the carnal christians recieve a second chance. Most will be martered.
These marters also attend the marriage supper.
.
Matt26
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.


David

 2008/4/13 1:52Profile









 Re: Be ready! God loves you, and so do I.

I want to say that this issue does not and will not separate me from honoring, loving, or respecting any sister or brother who holds, or is leaning toward the pre- tribulaton faith , whatsoever.



The only thing important, as many pre- trib-rapture brothers have defined, is that we be prepared. I believe the Lord Jesus gave us THE PARABLE OF THE 10 VIRGINS for exactly such a time as this. The wisdom and direction here is this; THERE IS DARKNESS AND NIGHT COMING. BE WISE AND STORE FAITH AND LOVE IN YOUR HEART [OIL TO BURN YOUR FIRE] SO THAT YOU CAN WALK AND SEE, WHEN THE BLACK DAY ARRIVES.


This is a PREPERATION issue, not a SALVATION issue. Jesus, in the future, obviously, will clearly determine, with blazing light, those whom he marries, and those He rejects. It will have nothing to do about when He decides to redeem the Bride in fullness in Heaven; when he Gathers them.


If you or I love the Church, God's family, we will want them secure in His arms on that day, or the day of their deaths. This is so today, as a steady stream of prepared ones enter Paradise, washed White in His Blood.




I posted an exceptionally STRONG post, that may have seemed divisional. That was or is not my intention. I stand by my convictions, though please understand, this does not reflect
my rejection or fellowship with anyone who is born again, or may disagree with me.

Saying, that, I want to state that this is not primarily about the 7th trump. It is about , IN MY VIEW, my Dear brothers, DECEPTION. This , I believe, was spoken by the Devil, into the Church, to keep them from maturity; to lure them into COMPLACENCY, or LUKEWARMNESS, or being unprepared to meet their God, on any front.


Let us consider today, if the prophet[hachoo! I just sneezed for some reason] Kim Clement stated that God had just shown Him soon all true believer's souls would go to Heaven and be with the Lord; be raptured, but their bodies, spirits, and personalities would remain on Earth as usual, only now and then they would act funny, so you could identify that they were really raptured. Probably, he would sell a lot of books, and increase in finances and tv bookings, but some would cry Wolf!


This is akin to the revelation of the pre-tribulation rapture theory in the 1840s. One of the facts that Brother Smith pointed out, there is no precedent in Church History for this doctrine. It came as a prophecy from one young woman! Rather than join the scriptural unity and form, as an interlocking foundation, one must twist and fit a few undefined possibilities to begin to make it plausible. Hammer it in, and then say, " well no one can really know".


[ Some are very passionate about this, and really will not embrace you fully IF you disagree. ]Then, two very powerful theologians,[like Billy Graham and TBN today] Darby and Scofield, jumped aboard, and it became foundational truth and received widespread attention, along with cessationist theology,[The Holy Spirit quit manifesting Himself as He did if former Biblical ways].


Even today, in some circles, you are considered anathema, and from the Devil himself, if you speak in tongues or manifest other gifts spoken of in the New Testament. This ended on the day the last Apostle died, probably John. This also was a fruit of Scofield and his wildly popular Bible. [I cut my teeth on it, and loved his original language comments. It was refreshing, yet , somehow I skated past the indoctrination; I was spirit filled and spoke in tongues.]


Jesus admonished us over and over to keep our lights burning, and to BE READY, for we don't know the day or hour of His return. It is important to HIM. He desires his Body to be pure, and ready, likewise desiring Him.


Let's agree on this; there is a time of trouble, of Wrath coming, in a monumental, unimaginable way; The Book of the Revelation of Jesus. There is a "GREAT MULTITUDE" who have came out of it, and stand before God, HOLY, having washed their robes in His Blood. READ REVELATION 7 VERSE 14. !


If myself, and others who believe as I do , were totally wrong, wouldn't it be wise to live like we were right?[ I know many of you do.]

This global bride speaks of SOME who came out of the Great Tribulation; more than a man can count; a Great multitude. Now possibly you are already in Heaven at that time, to greet those Saints arriving. I'm for you, and congratulate you for obtaining the greatest prize the Universe has to offer.

Jesus said;"BE READY!"


Thank you Sermon Index for the forum and freedom and grace to dialogue this awesome End-time issue. It is very rare and unheard of, for me, until now. It is an important issue with the Father also, I think.

Brothertom.




 2008/4/13 7:52
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

tom said;
This is akin to the revelation of the pre-tribulation rapture theory in the 1840s. One of the facts that Brother Smith pointed out, there is no precedent in Church History for this doctrine. It came as a prophecy from one young woman!

Now do you see why it is important to stick with scripture?

Do you honestly think you are on to something?
One of the facts that bro. Smith pointed out?
A fact?

This was debunked and put in its place long ago.
And yet is still used to "disqualify" the brothers that see differently than you.

You do EXACTLY what you accuse your hypothetical Kim Clement of doing.
Its good the brethren can research for themselves and root out false info like you produce as fact.


Bro Tom said;

"Rather than join the scriptural unity and form, as an interlocking foundation, one must twist and fit a few undefined possibilities to begin to make it plausible. Hammer it in, and then say, " well no one can really know"."

Are you referring to the way post trib theory crams the second coming into one event?
Or what post trib does to the parable of the 10 virgins?
Or maybe you are referring to the inconvenience of the marriage supper of the lamb?

Or how do you hammer fit the white horses?
Under your theory Jesus comes to meet the raptured saints. But OOPs he has all these horses with him. "well we can still force fit this into one event"
Is that kinda what you're talking about?


If the post trib believers have such a compelling case for truth why do they have to revert to disqualifying their brothers that see it differently?


Tom said,

Jesus admonished us over and over to keep our lights burning, and to BE READY, for we don't know the day or hour of His return. It is important to HIM. He desires his Body to be pure, and ready, likewise desiring Him

Does this mean to watch for Antichrists appearing or Jesus' appearing?


David

 2008/4/13 9:31Profile









 Re:

??? Sorry David, I don't get it. I want us to be prepared to meet Jesus, that's all. You sound angry or frustrated.


Tom

 2008/4/13 9:41
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Brother Tom…

Quote:

I want to say that this issue does not and will not separate me from honoring, loving, or respecting any sister or brother who holds, or is leaning toward the pre- tribulaton faith , whatsoever.
…
I posted an exceptionally STRONG post, that may have seemed divisional. That was or is not my intention. I stand by my convictions, though please understand, this does not reflect
my rejection or fellowship with anyone who is born again, or may disagree with me.

I don’t think that your motives are in question in such a discussion, dear brother. I think that it is apparent that you, like most of us on a website dedicated to true Biblical revival, are sincere and well-meaning in our conversations.

I don’t sit in a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib sort of eschatology. I simply don’t know with 100% certainty just how exactly the end will come about. Personally, I lean toward an idea that the Lord would take His Bride [u]before[/u] He pours out His wrath upon the Earth. However, I am certainly aware that this might not be how things transpire.
Quote:

Saying, that, I want to state that this is not primarily about the 7th trump. It is about , IN MY VIEW, my Dear brothers, DECEPTION. This , I believe, was spoken by the Devil, into the Church, to keep them from maturity; to lure them into COMPLACENCY, or LUKEWARMNESS, or being unprepared to meet their God, on any front.


I understand. Some post-trib believers have “warned” about the possibility of being deceived by the Antichrist and his system if such believers are “banking” on the idea of a “rapture” that might never come. However, this same sort of thing could be said by those who embrace a pre-trib view of the End. “Pre-trib” believers could insist that some “post-trib” believers might put off their eternal preparation because they are waiting for signs of the end. If they haven’t made themselves ready for the Groom’s arrival (and taking), it could be argued that they would face a terrible calamitous future. This is why I feel that we should be prepared for both (and other) possible scenarios. How do we prepare? Do we prepare by leaning one way or the other? Wouldn’t it be better to simply be prepared spiritually while watching (and waiting) for His Coming?

Either way, this sort of argument is not about DECEPTION as much as it is about INTERPRETATION. We each have arrived to our conclusions (or in my case, lack of final conclusion) based upon sincerity of heart through study. That is why it is so dangerous to take such an absolute position on such matters that are not entirely and plainly presented in the Scriptures. I think that none of us could honestly say that the Scriptures speak plainly in regard to the exact timing and manner of the Lord’s return. Many post-trib believers have confessed as having previously leaned or adhered to a “pre-trib” position (and vice versa).
Quote:

Let us consider today, if the prophet[hachoo! I just sneezed for some reason] Kim Clement stated that God had just shown Him soon all true believer's souls would go to Heaven and be with the Lord; be raptured, but their bodies, spirits, and personalities would remain on Earth as usual, only now and then they would act funny, so you could identify that they were really raptured. Probably, he would sell a lot of books, and increase in finances and tv bookings, but some would cry Wolf!


This is fine, but Kim Clement doesn’t represent most pre-trib believers. I don’t listen to this guy at all. In fact, I don’t agree with the little that I have actually heard from the man. He just doesn’t ring credible to me when he “prophesies” things that never take place. However, this doesn’t necessarily make everything Clement says to be a “lie.” He might simply be a false prophet who happens to also adhere to a “pre-trib rapture” (if in word only). Joseph Smith was certainly a false prophet – but a few of his doctrinal positions were sound (like the importance of “baptism”). Again, the pope teaches against abortion, gay marriage and women holding authority over a man. Yet we know that the pope leads a religion filled with false doctrines. It doesn’t make the pope’s position on abortion wrong. It just means that this false teacher happens to mix his messages with some semblance of a few truths.

Quote:

This is akin to the revelation of the pre-tribulation rapture theory in the 1840s. One of the facts that Brother Smith pointed out, there is no precedent in Church History for this doctrine. It came as a prophecy from one young woman! Rather than join the scriptural unity and form, as an interlocking foundation, one must twist and fit a few undefined possibilities to begin to make it plausible. Hammer it in, and then say, " well no one can really know".


This is merely a legend. Most of the people who repeat this story simply base it upon a repeated story of this as found in books and teachings. I wonder: Do those who repeat it realize that they are basing it upon what they have heard rather than what they have researched? Ephrem, an early Byzantine-Syrian Church leader, wrote C. 373 AD: "For all the saints and Elect of God [b]are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord[/b] lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (recorded by Ephrem the Syrian in [i]On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World[/i]). Ephrem went on to speak about his beliefs in a Jewish Antichrist ruling in (and from) Rome, a rebuilt Jewish Temple, and a period of “Great Tribulation” that would last a total of 1,260 days (corresponding to what is found in the book of Daniel). In his collection known as [i]The Book of the Cave Treasure[/i], Ephrem states a belief that the Great Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel and would culminate with the Battle at Megiddo.

In 1748, a Baptist theologian named John Gill wrote about what he called “the Rapture.” In his Commentary on the New Testament concerning I Thessalonians chapter 4, Gill wrote about a “rapture” that would be “sudden, and unknown before-hand, and when least thought of and expected.” Dr. Gill states that the Lord would return suddenly and unannounced to a world not expecting him, the saints will be “raptured,” taken to the “third Heaven” until the end of the “time of the general conflagration and burning of the world is over,” and then return back to this Earth.

In other words, these are two examples that show that the idea of a rapture did not originate with a young woman in 1840 (or 1830), John Darby, Eduard Irving (in 1816), Emmanuel Acurnza (in 1812), etc… However, these things are commonly reported as fact. Yet in reality, this is disingenuous because they are based upon hearsay rather than actual research. I might even ponder where exactly the notion of a “post-trib“ perspective originated. Yes, the early Church leaders spoke about terrible persecutions and tribulations that should be endured. But this could likely mean the tribulation and persecution that resulted from the hands of mankind. Remember, early believers were mercilessly beaten, imprisoned, tortured and killed for their faith. The time of “great tribulation” will be so because of the fact that God will pour out HIS judgment that is stored for those living upon this Earth.
Quote:

Even today, in some circles, you are considered anathema, and from the Devil himself, if you speak in tongues or manifest other gifts spoken of in the New Testament. This ended on the day the last Apostle died, probably John. This also was a fruit of Scofield and his wildly popular Bible. [I cut my teeth on it, and loved his original language comments. It was refreshing, yet , somehow I skated past the indoctrination; I was spirit filled and spoke in tongues.]


This is all good to remember. However, it seems to me that there are many post-tribbers who point the finger of “heresy” at those who lean or embrace a “pre-trib” perspective. In the past amongst good brethren at SermonIndex, this discussion can become quite contentious. People have literally “warned” those who believe or lean “pre-trib” about the dangers of being deceived and led astray by the Antichrist because of this perspective. As you can imagine, it is quite a silly and almost odious remark to people who sincerely know, love and fellowship with the Lord. Yet people still boldly speak such things as “absolutes” because they truly feel that they are correct. They don’t regret having called such a thing “deception” or “a lie” simply because they are highly convinced of it. But isn’t this how denominational types of divisions are created? On the things that are vital and abundantly clear we must be in agreement. But in those things that are not, we should react in patience.
Quote:

If myself, and others who believe as I do , were totally wrong, wouldn't it be wise to live like we were right?[ I know many of you do.]

Yes, we should live like you are right. We must be willing to endure all things on behalf of our relationship with Jesus Christ. However, you too should live like a possibility remains that the Lord could come at an hour when people think not – at an hour when the world lives, moves and operates as it always has (eat, drink and be merry). If we are prepared for BOTH ideas of the return of the Lord, aren’t we simply living like we should?

We should always be ready to endure persecution and tribulation – regardless of the manner and timing. And we should always be ready to depart suddenly from this world – whether through a “rapture” or via death. After all, we are the Bride of Christ who makes herself ready and waits for her Husband with godly patience.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/4/13 16:10Profile









 Re:

Sunday 04/13/08 5:00:03 PM
Please help me here. I am of pre-trib belief of the scriptures. I want to be correct in my theology. Below is some info in how I reached my conclusions. Please look at these and tell me where I have gone wrong, if I have. Please stay with these scriptures. Please answer these questions in a post trib manner and try to convince me if you stay with these passages and add to with others but please explain these passages. I know there are some good Bereans out there that will and can explain these to correct an error on my part.

If we physically die before the tribulation starts and we are saved and before Jesus reveals the anti-christ, will those saved people who are physically dead (Christians) go through tribulation in the post-trib belief? John 6:44

Has Jesus already raptured some Christians that have physically died and when did it happen, do we have a pattern of this future resurrection other than Jesus our first fruits? Matt 27 53

If we don't go through the tribulation, when we are physical dead, then is that fair and just for all, if only those Christians who remain go through the great tribulation? Acts 10:34

If a Christian goes through the great tribulation will that death be more or less painful or more or less desirable or more saved, than many some natural or accidental deaths that some Christians have already experienced thus far today in the world for Christ? 2 Cor 5:8

Has Jesus already revealed the antichrist?
1 John 4:3

Is the antichrist already in the world?
1 John 4:3

Was the spirit of antichrist already in the world when Jesus spoke of him?
1 John 4:3

What are the qualities that we can recognize about the antichrist, if he masquerades himself around as an angel of light? How can we tell what his spirit is?
1 John 4:1-3

Do we have any people who speak in the world today that fits this description of the antichrist?
1 John 4:1-3

Will the gentiles, non-Jewish decent (saved people), go through the tribulation or only unsaved Jewish people who hasn't made Jesus Lord and Savior?

What is meant by the passage “ when the fullness of the gentiles come in”? Rom 11:25

What is being referred to in the passage about grafting back in the natural branches and the wild olive shoot?
Rom 11:17-21

Where do we go when we die, if we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb? 2 Cor 5:8

edited and question added:
Do the scriptures indicate Noah's ark a sign of Jesus' coming. and if so, who will be in the ark and are the saved people, just as Noah's family was saved from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Where was the people of God when the wrath of God was poured out upon the world with water in the Day of Noah? Where they not safe in the Ark? Where were the lost people? Outside the ark right? Did Jesus not say this is the same way it will be, Just as it was in the Day of Noah? Will he use fire next time?
Matt 24:37

 2008/4/13 16:42
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Brothertom said;
"??? Sorry David, I don't get it. I want us to be prepared to meet Jesus, that's all. You sound angry or frustrated."

I basically used your terminology but with a differeent viewpoint.

Brothertom said;
"I posted an exceptionally STRONG post, that may have seemed divisional. That was or is not my intention. I stand by my convictions, though please understand, this does not reflect
my rejection or fellowship with anyone who is born again, or may disagree with me"

Does this mean you are mad ,frustrated and upset?


I dont see how you can have it both ways??
Wouldnt it be better to "dialog"?


David

 2008/4/13 19:19Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Moe said;
"If we physically die before the tribulation starts and we are saved and before Jesus reveals the anti-christ, will those saved people who are physically dead (Christians) go through tribulation in the post-trib belief? John 6:44"

Now this is interesting! I wonder if anyone ever thought of this?
Does this blow yet another hole in the post trib theory?
Because most of their argument is the "unfairness" of a pretrib rapture.


Do These saints actually cheat God by dying before they suffer?

Interesting!!!

David

 2008/4/13 19:33Profile





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