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Online! | Tribulation Or Rapture -smith | | [b]Tribulation Or Rapture[/b] [i]by Oswald J. Smith[/i]
Why did the Lord Jesus conceal the Secret Rapture in Matthew twenty-four? How are we to explain the silence of the Church for centuries concerning it? What about the passages that have been used to support it? Have we been lulling the Church into a false security? Are there any outstanding Christian leaders who believe that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation? In my first book on Prophecy I asked the questions: "Will the Church pass through the Tribulation or be raptured out of it?" In answering I made this statement: "I have always held the view that the Rapture precedes the Revelation by some seven years, and that the Church, therefore, will not go through the Tribulation, but I do not want to be dogmatic about it and, if God should reveal the contrary to me, I will gladly accept it". Hence, you see, I did not approach the subject with my mind closed to new light and my heart already prejudiced. I was open to whatever God might reveal. Now, after years of study and prayer, I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist, and that Christ will come at the close and not at the beginning of that awful period. I believed the other theory simply because I was taught it by W. E. Blackstone in his book "Jesus is Coming," the Scofield Reference Bible and Prophetic Conferences and Bible Schools; but when I began to search the Scriptures for myself I discovered that there is not a single verse in the Bible that upholds the pre-tribulation theory, but that the uniform teaching of the Word of God is of a post-tribulation Rapture: pre-millennial always. everywhere pre-millennial, but post-tribulation. MY FIRST AWAKENING
My first awakening to this important truth came one day in 1925, when I was spending a few days in a cottage at Stoney Lake, Ontario. One of my neighbors, Frank Edmonds by name, simply made the suggestion to me. I opposed it at once. "Why," I exclaimed, "however could that be? What about the Scriptures? The teaching of a pre-tribulation Rapture is clear and indisputable." But he quietly affirmed that I was wrong and emphasized the truth concerning the Last Trump. Of course, I was not convinced. I almost ridiculed the very idea of such a possibility. And there the matter rested. One day, in the early twenties, I began preaching on Prophecy. I had taken my people through Daniel without difficulty. Then came Mark 13. Luke 21, and Matthew 24 and 25. But. lo and behold, no sooner had I started on Matthew 24 than I got into trouble. I had announced that I would deal with Matthew 24 at the next service. Hundreds had gathered. I was in a maze, for I was perplexed. So I took a verse here and there through the chapter and thus satisfied the people for that hour at least. But now the next meeting was coming. What was I to say? I need not point out that there is no pretribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. The Second Coming is unmistakably placed "immediately after the Tribulation" (verse 29), and I was forced to the conclusion that if the Rapture was to be before" the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus Christ would certainly have given some hint of it at least. He was dealing with the End-Time of the Age. It is unthinkable that He would have spoken so minutely of the Tribulation without stating that the Church would escape. Instead, He purposely led His hearers to the belief that His followers would be in it. Hence, I was staggered, nor could I honestly defend my previous position. So, when I again faced the people, I said sufficient to let them know that I questioned my former stand and saw evidence of a post-tribulation Rapture. For, as I read Matthew 24 and 25, I saw that many things, as prophesied by the Lord Jesus Christ, simply had to take place before Jesus could come, namely: "All these things" (verse 33), especially the prediction regarding the preaching of the Gospel. See Mark 13:10, and note the significance of the word "first". Thus, since Gods future program could not be set aside, there could be no "any moment expectation" of Christs Return. We are to watch, watch as prophecy after prophecy is fulfilled, ever looking forward to His Appearing; and, in the End-Time, to watch as never before, and to always be ready, for none can ever know how quickly the events predicted might come to pass and Christ return. MY "ANY MOMENT" THEORY
Then followed the next step. There came into my hands a copy of a book by Dr. Henry W. Frost, then the Home Director of the China Inland Mission. It was entitled "Matthew 24 and the Revelation," a volume of over 300 pages. I fairly devoured it. Portions of it I read through twice. It was most conclusive in its arguments for a post-tribulation Rapture. About the same time I got hold of a book by James H. McConkey, called "The Book of Revelation," and anotherperhaps the best of allby Edmund Shackleton (England), entitled "Will the Church Escape the Great Tribulation?" Before I had read them through I was firmly convinced that there would be no Rapture before the Tribulation, and that I had done wrong in promising the Church an escape instead of preparing her for the terrible ordeal that must most surely be awaited. My "any moment" theory could not be sustained. In fact, the very first statement in the latter book, which was written about 1890, amazed me beyond measure and I was fairly staggered as I grasped its significance. Let me quote it verbatim: All who held the pre-millennial Coming of Christ were, till about sixty years ago, of one mind on the subject. About that time a new view was promulgated that the Coming of Christ was not one event, but that it was divided into stages, in fact, that Christ comes twice from heaven to earth, but the first time only as far as the air. This first descent, it is said, will be for the purpose of removing the Church from the world, and will occur before the Great Tribulation under Antichrist. This they call "The coming for His saints" or "Secret Rapture." The second part of the Coming is said to take place when Christ appears in glory and destroys the Antichrist. This they call "The coming with His saints." Apart from the test of the Word, which is the only final one, there are certain reasons why this doctrine should be viewed with suspicion. It appears to be little more than sixty years old; and it seems highly improbable that. if scriptural it could have escaped the scrutiny of the many devoted Bible students whose writings have been preserved to us from the past. More especially in the writings of the early Christian fathers would we expect to find some notice of this doctrine, if it had been taught by the Apostles; but those who have their works declare that they betray no knowledge of a theory that the Church would escape the Tribulation under Antichrist, or that there would be any "coming" except that spoken of in Matthew 24, as occurring in manifest glory "after the Tribulation." This is all the more significant, because these writers bestowed much attention upon the subject of the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation. Augustine, referring to Daniel 7, wrote: "But he who reads this passage even half asleep cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church." Then when I remembered that the death of Peter, his prediction of corruption and apostasy after his decease, the death of Paul, and many other events had to occur before the Raptureespecially the evangelization of the world (Mark 13:10 and Matt. 24:14)my "any moment" theory took wings and fled. Last of all, I ran across "The Great TribulationThe Churchs Supreme Test" by John B. Scruby, the most convincing; the most unanswerable of all. It deals with every point minutely and proves conclusively that the Tribulation precedes the Rapture. Recently I got hold of that remarkable book "Tribulation to Glory" by H. A. Baker. in which he wrote: "For eighteen centuries the fundamental principle of tribulation to glory was the universal belief of the truly born-again members of the Church", and then he goes on to show that the new pre-tribulation rapture teaching was first proclaimed as a direct revelation by a woman in Edward Irvings church, and then taken up by John Nelson Darby (and the Scofield Reference Bible) in direct contradiction to the teaching of the Church for eighteen hundred years. "Beginning with the Irvingite woman, then propagated by John N. Darby about 1830, this new spirit-inspired doctrine during the last century has come down to us until it has become popular. George Muller opposed it; so did Benjamin Wills Newton; so did Dr. S. P. Tregelles and other Brethren, but all in vain." But now, thank God, large numbers of our leading Bible Teachers are coming back to the original position. GODS WORD
I discovered that no time element is ever mentioned so far as the Rapture is concerned, except as it is related to the Resurrection. And that the Resurrection is always placed at the time of the sounding of the Last Trump (1 Cor. 15:51-54). This Trump, without doubt, closes the Tribulation. There is no eighth. The saints are rewarded (Rev. 11:18). The "mystery of God", is then finished, there is time (delay) no longer (Rev. 10:6 and 7), and the Resurrection, of course, immediately precedes the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:16). Naturally, I thought of 2 Thessalonians 2:7: "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way". But then I learned from the Greek that the second "he" is the Antichrist, and that the Greek does not say "taken out of the way," but "revealed in the midst," or, "born out of the midst." In other words, lawlessness will be restrained until the appointed time for the lawless one, the Antichrist, to appear. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit at all. That is a Scofield Bible assumption. The Holy Spirit and the Church remain to the end of the Age. Then, too. I thought of Luke 21:36 and of Revelation 3:10. But Noah, I remembered, "escaped" by preservation. Daniel "was kept" and protected in the lions den. The three Hebrew children were "kept" though in a burning fiery furnace. None of them were taken out. Rather they were kept, preserved, protected while in, and thus they escaped. Why not the Church? Note that 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 finds the saints in trouble, in tribulation, and resting only at the close. In fact the first two chapters of 2 Thessalonians cannot be interpreted in any other way. Chapter two, verse one, is most explicit. "Now we beseech you, brethren", writes Paul, "by the coming (Revelation) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together (the Rapture) unto Him". There is here no separation between the Rapture and the Revelation. The Coming is the one and only Coming spoken of throughout the two chapters, the Coming described in chapter one, verses seven and eight. I learned, too, that the word for "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4: was only used in two other places, and, in both cases, it meant "returning with" and not "remaining at" the place of meeting. When the brethren from Rome met Paul, they immediately returned to the city with him. When the Virgins met the Bridegroom they accompanied Him back to the wedding. When the saints meet Christ in the Air, as He comes to judge the nations and establish His Kingdom on earth, they will return with Him. There is no Scripture that says they will remain for some seven years in the Air. In 1 Thessalonians each chapter closes with a reference to the Second Coming, but no distinction is made. As Christ descends with His angels after the Tribulation, the saints ascend, and, meeting Him in the Air, turn and continue with Him back to the earth. How long He remains in the Air, following the meeting with the Church is nowhere revealed. "The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints" (1 Thess. 3:13), is unquestionably the Revelation, after the Tribulation, simply because the words, "with all His saints" are added. But why infer another, a previous Coming, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1:10, or 5:23? It is all one and the same. There is no Secret Rapture. That theory must be deliberately read into the passage. There is no Rapture in Revelation until chapter nineteen is reached. I had been taught that the Greek word "parousia" always referred to the Rapture and that other words were used for the Coming of Christ in glory after the Tribulation. But I found that this is not true. Parousia is used for the latter, too. See 2 Thessalonians 2:1. While it is clear that the Church must endure the wrath of the Antichrist, it is certain that the Church will not have to endure the wrath of God. When His judgments are poured out on the Antichrist and his followers, the Church will be divinely protected by God even as the Israelites were protected when His wrath was poured upon the Egyptiansnot by being raptured, but by being kept. We might go through all the writers of the New Testament, and we would fail to discover any indication of the so-called "two-stages" of our Lords Coming. Peter, James and John tell the same story. There is no Scripture for a pre-tribulation rapture. That theory had to be invented by man. Search and see. There is no verse in the Bible that even mentions it. I discovered that nearly all evangelical missionary leaders believe that there must be representatives in the Church of Christ from every tribe, kindred, tongue and nation, and not just from the so-called civilized world, and that, therefore, the only way to hasten the Coming of Christ is by evangelizing the remaining unreached peoples of earth. Jesus made it perfectly clear when He said, "the gospel must first be published among all nations" (Mark 13:10) "and then shall the end come" (Matt. 24:14). Hence, the greatest incentive to missionary work is the Second Coming of Christ. SPIRITUAL PREPAREDNESS
I am sure that with the true child of God it is not a question of preference but of truth. Does Gods Word say so? Why then rebel? Is not His plan best? Besides, what difference does it make so long as we are ready? "Spiritual Preparedness" is the only important factor after all. I wonder if we have been lulling the Church into a false security? Can it be that we have been preaching an easy escape? Ought we to prepare the Church for the greatest of all ordeals? Should not our teaching harden her for the fires of the Tribulation? What kind of soldiers are we training? I am afraid that we have been very guilty and that God will certainly hold us responsible for the type of Christian our preaching is producing. We need men and women today of the martyr spirit. The test of the Inquisition is coming again and woe betide the pre-millennialists who are not ready. The Church must be purified in the fires of persecution. VOICES OF OTHERS
Now if I were to go into the subject in detail and attempt to deal with the numerous passages, both for and against, I would simply be overlapping. Others have already done this most ably, far better than I can, and so, if you are really interested, I would suggest that you secure the books that have been written on the subject and study them prayerfully and with an open mind before taking sides. A great many have been written by men on both sides of the Atlantic. The following are among the best that have been published in Great Britain and you may procure most of them from THE SOVEREIGN GRACE ADVENT TESTIMONY, I DONALD WAY, CHELMSFORD, ESSEX, CM2 9JB, the organization that publishes the Post-Tribulation magazine Watching and Waiting, edited by James Payne. Here are the books: Will the Church Escape the Great Tribulation? (by Edmund Shackleton); Christs Second Coming (by S. P. Tregelles) [these two are scarce]; Our Lord Cometh (by W. J. Rowlands); The Coming of the Son of Man (by Rev. E. J. Poole-Connor); The Second Advent of our Lord, Not Secret, but in Manifested Glory (by B. W. Newton); One Second Coming of Christ (by W. J. Rowlands); The First Resurrection (by S. P. Tregelles); Touching the Coming of the Lord (by Dan Crawford); The Saints Rest and Rapture (by Frank H. White); The Second Coming of Christ (by George Muller). Send for their catalogue. The following have been published in North America: The Blessed Hope (by Professor George E. Ladd). Dr. Ladd teaches in Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena. It is a masterly volume and it goes into both the history and doctrine of both the Pre-Tribulation and the Post-Tribulation Advent. "Will Christs Coming he in two stages?" (by Norman F. Douty). I have a list of nearly seventy Bible Teachers who have proclaimed this view of the Return of Christ. Among them, in addition to those who have written the above books, there are such names as W. J. Erdman, Charles R. Erdman. Dr. Campbell Morgan, Bishop Frank Houghton, Dr. A. B. Simpson, Dr. J. W. Thirtle, Dr. Charles T. Cook, Alexander Reese, Dr. Horatius Bonar, Dr. Adolph Saphir, Henry Varley, Dr. Nathaniel West, David Baron, H. W. Soltau, Dr. Bergin, Dr. Harold J. Ockenga, and many others. To ignore the convictions of such spiritual leaders is impossible. Deference must be given to their views. These views I would sum up by quoting from Watching and Waiting"We believe that this was the teaching of our Lord and His Apostles. We believe it was held by the Early Church and by all in the Middle Ages who had any light on the Second Advent. We believe, too, that it was the teaching of the Early Brethren and that no other view was generally accepted among them until the Any Moment. Secret Rapture, Pre-Tribulation, or Two-Stage Coming theory was taught by Edward Irving, as a result of a vision received by a woman in his church. Thus Any Moment teaching is a novel doctrine". MY FINAL APPEAL
Beloved, the shadows are darkening. The day is drawing to a close. It is now Saturday night in the history of the Church. The times of the Gentiles have almost run their course. Events are fast shaping for the end. The Antichrist will soon be here. One fact and one only is importantChrist is coming. Of that there can be no doubt. One question and one only is vitalAre we ready? We may differ on minor details of prophecy. We may disagree as to the time of His Appearing. We may not see eye to eye regarding the order of prophetic events. But one thing is certainHe is coming. We will be with Him. The Millennium is at hand and soon now we shall know all. Therefore, let us love one another sincerely and labour together "till He Come". If I am mistaken I will know it then. Hence, let us agree to disagree agreeably. God knows our hearts. He knows that we love Him and that is all that really matters. If I love Him and you love Him, we will love each other. Soon the day will break and all the shadows flee away. Meanwhile I am "looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2 :13).
_________________ SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| 2008/4/11 1:17 | Profile |
| Re: Tribulation Or Rapture -smith | | 1 Cor 15:52 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. KJV
1 Thess 4:16 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: KJV
NT:4536 salpigx (sal'-pinx); perhaps from NT:4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation): KJV - a trumpet:
Rev 11:15 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: (from New International Version)
And 2532 the 3588 seventh 1442 angel 32 sounded; 4537 and 2532 there were 1096 voices 5456 great 3173 in 1722 3588 heaven, 3772 saying, 3004 are become 1096 the kingdoms The 3588 kingdoms 932 3588 of this world 2889
NT:4537
salpizo (sal-pid'-zo); from NT:4536; to trumpet, i.e. sound a blast (literally or figuratively): KJV - (which are yet to) sound (a trumpet).
Matt 27:50-52 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. (from New International Version)
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| 2008/4/11 9:34 | |
| Re: Tribulation Or Rapture -smith | | Glad to see that Mr. Smith holds that the Church will go through Tribulation, from a Scriptural perspective.
The common sense perspective says, "what goes around comes around." Over the ages the Church has been responsible for so much misery here on earth. Think about it. The Crusades, the witch trials . . . . the list is quite long and millions have been persecuted, tortured and put to death by the Church.
why Would the Church be spared? Our Lord is a God of Justice.
bub |
| 2008/4/11 10:08 | | broclint Member
Joined: 2006/8/1 Posts: 370 West Monroe, LA
| Re: | | Quote:
bub said: The common sense perspective says, "what goes around comes around." Over the ages the Church has been responsible for so much misery here on earth. Think about it. The Crusades, the witch trials . . . . the list is quite long and millions have been persecuted, tortured and put to death by the Church.
I certainly cannot agree with that assessment at all. It is not the Church that has been responsible for misery, but hypocrites parading as the Church. Methinks you need to rethink that very false statement. It is the Church, the True Church that has been and still is the only salt that keeps the whole from rotting down, and when the world has finally persecuted and destroyed The Real Church then those claiming to be the church that are in name only, and the secular humanists, psuedo scientists, and the whore church have their messiah, then the reality of "what goes around, comes around" will be seen on this earth in the burning wrath of God being poured out on the beast kingdom and all those who believe that the best way to get along is to go along like those who bowed to Nebuchanezzar's image, while the faithful few would rather burn than bow.
I had written a post before seeing this one, but felt this error must first be addressed :-( .
In reference to the article of this thread: I have preached this very thing for at least 20 years now, and had no idea until viewing the forums on this site that there were as many as there are who hold to this view. In my denomination the pre-trib rapture is the most prevalent view even though there is only the teaching that the coming of the Lord is pre-millennial without positing a specific time.
I am grateful for all these references in this article. What is amazing to me is that I came to this very same conclusion, and my pastor did also (covered in another thread) with only the Bible as my source book after much prayer and research there and from the Greek and Hebrew origins of the words in the texts. I had never read any of these or any other sources espousing these views, but quite a few on the secret rapture, and in fact felt like I was treading in dangerous territory for taking such a stand, but also felt that I had to if I were going to be faithful to my conscience and my calling. I appreciate very much the way Dr. Smith ended the article, with the charitable view that the important thing is that we be ready
. It serves no purpose at all to damn those who do not see what we see. If it is a matter of great importance, to state our views in a godly fashion, just as is seen in this article is certainly wise and good, but to argue it for the sake of proving our point, can only drive those of opposing positions into further alienation.
I know that there are some good brothers and sisters on this site that are not yet convinced of this view, but if they strive to be ready for the coming of the Lord
simply and sincerely strive to be ready; then God will take care of them whatever we have to face. My only fear for so many in this country is that the disillusionment that may occur should their hopes be dashed may contribute to the great falling away that is also prophesied in scripture during the final days.
Proverbs 13:12 (NASB) 12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life.
To me one of the most convincing things regarding what Christians are called upon to face, (and have been called upon to face, like it or not, and certainly the flesh does not like it) is a simple word study sourcing the original Greek and Hebrew on the word tribulation and its synonyms. And the second greatest, in my opinion, is what the Lord Himself said regarding His return to His disciples and even to the Pharisees, and also to John in the Revelation, regarding in the clouds. The third most convincing thing to me in my personal study was a study of the trumpets from Old Testament times when the trumpet or horn was used to gather the Children of Israel together for all the various assemblies
and following that word all through the scriptures to that conclusion regarding the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised in view of the trumpets in the Revelation.
It is a fascinating study, but if that is all that it is, we are no better off than the scribes and Pharisees who loved to study but still failed to know the Lord
May we study to be prepared: Matthew 24:13 (KJV) 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Clint
_________________ Clint Thornton
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| 2008/4/11 11:09 | Profile | tjservant Member
Joined: 2006/8/25 Posts: 1658 Indiana USA
| Re: Tribulation Or Rapture -smith | | Quote:
I believed the other theory simply because I was taught it
What an indictment. I wonder how many others have believed certain doctrines simply because their Grandpa, Uncle, or Aunt taught it to them. I have suffered this as well. I picked up many things as a non-believer that had to be re-evaluated upon being truly born again.
I am continually amazed by the number of individuals I encounter that dismiss certain doctrines and teachings with a shrug of the shoulders and an I dont know or just because statement when asked to explain how they came to a particular conclusion.
We need to adopt the Berean mindset.
Great article. _________________ TJ
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| 2008/4/11 11:21 | Profile |
| Re: | | broClint,
you are right about there being a true Church. yet, it doesn't meet in a common place or service, but is made up of individual believers spread throughout various denominations.
putting these faithful people through the Tribulation would not be just.
Religious leaders, however, those in authority over the historic and present denominations of the Church, and their tithing, war promoting, consumption motivated, ritual practicing congregations, well that's another matter altogether. these are those who have abundance, but look away from the needy in the world, those who DO NOT praise and thank God for the CHALLENGES IN THEIR LIVES, but whine and complain about the car, the neighbors, the whatever, not seeing that God blesses us with challenges because we have lessons to learn and because He loves us.
doesn't this "Church" deserve to go through the Tribulation?
bub |
| 2008/4/11 12:29 | |
| Re: | | Bubba... the church you are referring to is a different Church than Jesus was referring to. True believers in Jesus Christ were not guilty of persecution, etc. In fact, for 2,000 years true believers in Jesus Christ have been persecuted... and often times by the so-called "church". Not just the hellish Roman Catholic Church, but also by men like Luther and Calvin. This is why I call myself a follower of Christ, and not a Protestant.
I know you have tried to clarify your first post, but it just bothers me when I hear the tired old statement "many have been persecuted by the church... look at the Crusades". Those people had about as little to do with Christ as a Black Bear does deep sea diving.
Krispy |
| 2008/4/11 13:50 | |
| Re: | | Bubba we all deserve hell, saved and unsaved, we all have a sin debt to be paid, church and unchurched for ourselves by rebelling in not accepting his free gift at the cross and submiiting to HIM in being both Savior and Lord. The question is for all of us, has Jesus paid for our sins or will we pay the penalty ourselves in hell? This is why the church should preach grace. If we have indeed received that grace, we will show thankfulness for that grace and is it will be manifested into works in our earthly lives in word and deed. One of those works that is produced by thankfulness for grace is manifested in works to the HIS church that he died for. He described how that grace is manifested and should look like so we can examine ourselves to see if we indeed have received and are thankful for that grace. Read the likeness in the 10 leapors that were healed and only one returned to thank him. Luke 17:11-19 11 Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. 12 As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance 13 and called out in a loud voice, "Jesus, Master, have pity on us!"
14 When he saw them, he said, "Go, show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, they were cleansed.
[u]15 One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him-and he was a Samaritan.[/u]
17 Jesus asked, "Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" 19 Then he said to him,[b] "Rise and go; your faith has made you well." [/b]
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| 2008/4/11 17:28 | | tjservant Member
Joined: 2006/8/25 Posts: 1658 Indiana USA
| Re: | | Quote:
Not just the hellish Roman Catholic Church, but also by men like Luther and Calvin. This is why I call myself a follower of Christ, and not a Protestant.
The thing is
they all called themselves followers of Christ. The real damage was done to the name Christian
Persecution is promised to all true Christians
and it may very well come from enemies claiming to be Christians as Krispy has pointed out. All denominations and theological leanings have administered their share of poison
many without intent and not all to the same degree
but great damage has been done to the Church (True body of Christ) from all sides. True Christians must live with the repercussions.
The day is coming to America, if not already here to some degree, that being labeled a Christian will bring severe persecution
no other label will be required.
I, like Krispy, try to stay clear of labels, but will gladly stand by him in waving the Christian banner. I am not ashamed of the Gospel
just some of its so called followers.
Good post Krispy.
Deep sea diving Black Bear :-P ...where do you get this stuff?
_________________ TJ
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| 2008/4/11 18:23 | Profile |
| Re:We'll fly away o lordy, we'll fly away..but to where? | | I have read the original post and all responses. I appreciate the scholarship of Brother Smith and historical research, nailing this deception for what it is. It has snowballed into a vast web of supporting doctrines also, and it is interesting that most of the folks who have embraced it have also espoused once saved always saved and the incorporation of "the American Dream" [Prosperity]] into their version of being a disciple of Jesus.
TBN, Paul Crouch and company, proudly preach it, along with the hundreds of preachers in their vein, with millions and millions that have had a daily diet for DECADES, in 100 countries or so. John Hagee, of San Antonio, an anointed orator, believes that the American economy will fall, when the Christian influence in our economy, the Believers, are removed instantly...you know, babies translated from their mothers breasts, jets crashing when pilots disappear, bus drivers, on and on, and then we'll be in financial chaos, and America will slide into depression. He would hardily agree with everything that I have stated here,,,this is not slander or gossip. They have made[TBN] several major movies on this theme, the most famous being the "LEFT BEHIND" series, with many famous actors involved.
My healing of the wound, though, would be different, somewhat, than Mr. Smith's. Books are a blessing, and important, but the reason that so many have believed this fantasy is through reading books, or being indoctrinated through the media. I remember "The late great planet Earth", by Hal Lindsey, circa 1970. A massive best seller, bombarding America with this apple plum vision of sweeping into Jesus' arms; out of your steaming convertable corvette into His hands and Angels and a dandy heaven to boot. Whoo-pee! we're saved and livin' life as the head, not the tail....! Bring on your coming! ....."Woe to those who desire the Day of the Lord; a day of darkness and not of light."
I read my Bible, and the source of my doctrinal faith has and always has been primarily the Holy writ; the scriptures. We need fearless men and women who will stand on the Word, and preachers, who are fearless to rebuke these lies. We need Bible Teachers, led by the Holy One, to expound these simple, and many scriptures to the simple, and the young, so that they can read and see for themselves. The problem to me about reading a list of books is that it is just complicated. Also I believe that if the gospel doesn't fly with the poorest on the Earth, then it isn't the gospel, I try and imagine grounding the poor Hindi masses, or African villagers, and I think I would go about it teaching the Bible,as simply as I could, and encourage them to learn from the Word likewise all their days. It is a good thing to bolster your faith, through another's thinking, but the thing about a man finding a pearl on his own as he seeks God is, it will always be with him. You have taught him how to fish, not just given him some cod.
This anti- christ lie lays in a more subtle deception that the Salvation of man is centered around God blessing man, not man becoming a son of God; being conformed to the likeness of Jesus by denying and dying.
The three Pillars of this new age Christian[including age old denominations] are the basis rights of all Christians: The right to Happiness, Health, and Prosperity. These rights have evolved into mandates that God must adhere to, and come with mantras and faith confessions, with much indoctrination, and very little actual bible reading and prayer attributed to the individual believer.[it seems so.]
The result has been a golf ball sized Jesus, who becomes both butler and slave to accommodate every "FAITH" desire that smooths my flesh. I'm blessed, and "I'M AT MY BEST, WHEN I'M BLESSED!" Though 170 years old, this doctrine was received in exactly the same vein as the wicked antichrist teachers of today."It's your destiny to be blessed!" No suffering at all; that would go against the right to happiness, and therefore could not be God at all. We will be rescued from all suffering, for a loving God would not want you to suffer the book of Revelation, or Isaiah 24. Impossible.
I am thankful to sermonindex for bringing this up, and the fatherly wisdom of Brother Smith. I am happy it has risen in these threads, and to see so many agree with truth.
In the Babtist religion, who claim only 50 to 70 MILLION here in America[counting 1st, 2nd, 3rd, free, southern, northern and 80 more splinters] chances are, you will lose your Pastorate, and be excommunicated for following that evil heresy of post tribulation rapture. [Not all, and I know there are many Babtists and affiliates who don't buy into it.]
I know some of that venom, as I had a while to address a church with whatever agenda I chose. I had a word of knowledge to begin with, that I was sweating out for a full minute in silence, until the young man I prophesied about came forward greatly broken, admitting rebellion and exactly endorsing my word, I had never met him, until then.[I have given very few of those words publicly] I thought this might buy me some respect!.....WRONG.
If Count Dracula were preaching, I would be better received, as they realized I was hinting that just maybe, the word may bear out the truth of Matt. 24, in a different light.... 7th trump, after the tribulation of those days, and so on. I was heading there. Never arrived. It did not go so well.
After the meeting, everyone avoided me.I had touched the Holy Grail. This was sacred ground to these people, that involved their lives, and their children's lives!, like I was an agent from Hades attempting to steal their FAITH. All I really wanted to do was to see them prepared for the inevitable; a hard time, and to BE PREPARED. 10 VIRGINS. 5 prepared with faith oil, 5 unprepared. Darkness sweeping in like a flood. Need light. where is light? In the "Day of the Lord?" .....Those prepared by the Holy Spirit to love Truth, at the expense of every thing else.
"If any man come after Me, an hate not his mother, brother, sister, possessions, CHILDREN, yes, and even his own life, HE cannot be my disciple." Brother Tom
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