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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Fear of God

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crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Chanin, once again you find the greatest things.
This is worth repeating:

[i]Mike Yaconelli: "I would like to suggest that the Church become a place of terror again; a place where God continually has to tell us, "Fear not"; a place where our relationship with God is not a simple belief or a doctrine or theology, it is God's burning presence in our lives. I am suggesting that the tame God of relevance be replaced by the God whose very presence shatters our egos into dust, burns our sin into ashes, and strips us naked to reveal the real person within. The Church needs to become a gloriously dangerous place where nothing is safe in God's presence except us. Nothing--including our plans, our agendas, our priorities, our politics, our money, our security, our comfort, our possessions, our needs."

"Our world is... longing to see people whose God is big and holy and frightening and gentle and tender... and ours; a God whose love frightens us into His strong and powerful arms where He longs to whisper those terrifying words, 'I love you.'"[/i]

Will never forget watching an episode of a well known 'Christian personality', one of his guest's an older gentleman was discussing how he had been in prayer and sensed that 'The Lord was sad' or something to that effect and that 'I asked Him, what is wrong Lord? He told me that His children were being disobedient, so I said 'Lord, I will stay here all day and comfort You'

and of course they all oohed and aahed...
And I just cried and tried to hold down the repulsion in my gut.


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Mike Balog

 2004/6/19 0:08Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

[b]Job 23:15[/b]
-
[b]Therefore am I troubled at his presence[/b] - The doctrine of divine purposes and decrees “is fitted to impress the mind with awe.” So vast are the plans of God; so uncertain to us is it what will be developed next; so impossible is it to resist God when he comes forth to execute his plans, that they fill the mind with reverence and fear. And this is one of the objects for which the doctrine is revealed. It is designed to rebuke the soul that is filled with flippancy and self-conceit; to impress the heart with adoring views of God, and to secure a proper reverence for his government. Not knowing what may be the next development of his plan, the mind should be in a state of holy fear - yet ready to submit and bow in whatever aspect his purposes may be made known. A Being, who has an eternal plan, and who is able to accomplish all that he purposes, and who makes known none of his dealings beforehand, should be an object of veneration and fear. It will not be the same “kind of dreadful fear” which we would have of one who had almighty power, but who had “no plan” of any kind, but profound veneration for one who is infinitely wise as well as almighty. The fear of an Almighty Being, who has an eternal plan, which we cannot doubt is wise, though it is inscrutable to us, is a fear mingled with confidence; it is awe leading to the profoundest veneration. His eternal counsels may take away “our” comforts, but they are right; his coming forth may fill us with awe, but we shall venerate and love him.

[b]When I consider[/b] - When I endeavor to understand his dealings; or when I think closely on them.

[b]I am afraid of him[/b] - This would be the effect on any mind. A man that will sit down alone and “think” of God, and on his vast plans, will see that there is abundant occasion to be in awe before him.

Albert Barne's Notes on the Bible


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Mike Balog

 2004/6/19 0:57Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re: Fear=worship

James

Quote:
Is fearing in Spirit what makes it Holy?



No. Godly fear, resulting in worship, is the human response to God's unchanging character. Nothing that humans 'do' can ever 'make' God anything. God is Holy because He is Holy not because of our reactions. Fear=worship is not what I was trying to say. The New Testament is both a commentary and definitive interpretation of the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit inspired the gospel-recorders to use the Greek word for 'worship' to capture the truth contained in Deuteronomy in the phrase 'fear the LORD your God'.

Notice that the Old Testament used the word 'LORD' (all in upper case) this is the proper name for God as He revealed Himself to the people to whom He joined Himself in covenant. The point is that this was not the 'fear of a stranger' or the 'terror caused by something utterly beyong our understanding'. This is the reverent awe experienced in the presence of the LORD 'your' God, but it is 'awe' nevertheless.

The link is not between 'fear' and 'worship', but 'the fear of the LORD your God' and 'worship'. In the context of our 21st century with its superficiality and slick methodology for Christian 'worship' it is a call to spend less time in 'worship seminars'and to get on our faces a little more.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/6/19 5:32Profile
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
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 Re:

Quote:

It's not a fear like God's going to punish us or hurt us



Indeed. A boogy-man type fear of the Lord is an improper type of fear. Such a fear can be seen in 2 Kings 17, where the Assyrians after they had transplanted Israel, were living in the land of God's people, and God sent lions amongst them and ate them. They thought of the Lord as any of the other idols of the nations who sought appeasement, so they sought out a former priest to teach them the laws of the God of Israel. They had the wrong type of fear. It was a boogy-man type of fear. And because they only had a boogy man type of fear, the Scriptures make a powerful statement: "they feared the Lord and served their own gods..." (v. 33)

What a paradox! They feared the Lord... yet served their own gods. There is some certain sense of irony in this. Yet, according to proverbs definition of the fear of the Lord, that is, to hate evil, it seems they did not have this hate of evil. Instead they had a fear that God would again send lions amongst them to eat them up again, or would rain fire and brimstone... or they feared going to hell. All are wrong motives for serving God, and result in an improper fear of God. Granted, God used those lions to get the attention of the Assyrians, but they did not act properly in response for the Lord's attempt to reach them.

However, with this said... let also also remember that it is not an improper thing to tremble in the presence of the Lord at that, out of a reverant awe that hates sin, and takes seriously His punishment of sin.


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Jimmy H

 2004/6/19 10:02Profile
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 In spirit and in truth

Philologos

I see what you are saying. I do not think I expressed myself as well as I could have in my last post. When I spoke of fear being equal to worship, what I really meant to say (maybe wrongly), was that holy fear is equal to worship. We know that we live in the era that Jesus spoke, when the true worshipers of God will worship in Spirit and in truth. That is why I spoke of (holy) fearing in the spirit, if you follow what I am saying.

It makes me think of what Paul says when he said, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” Romans 7:18

Certainly this includes holy fear as being something that does not dwell in us. He goes on in Chapter 8 to say, “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.”

That is why I (maybe wrongly) think of it as holy fearing in Spirit.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/19 12:01Profile
Yodi
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Joined: 2004/4/23
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 Definition of Fear

Well, I don't think I have much more to add. I think we all agree here on the definition of fear. I don't think it could have been put more simpler than "DelightedInU" defined Biblical fear. Pretty much "reverance".


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Yolanda Fields

 2004/6/19 13:14Profile
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Posts: 19


 Re: Definition of Fear

John Bunyan (yes, the same one who wrote Pilgrim's Progress) wrote a book titled [u]The Fear of God[/u] that is probably the best book on the subject.


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Chancellor Carlyle Roberts, II

 2004/7/13 23:15Profile
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 Re: Fear = worship

Worship is a word derived out of giving worth. The original english word I was taught was something like worthship. Giving what was worth. God is truly worthy of fear.
A proper attitude toward God is true worship. That can manifest itself in a variety of ways. The attitude of worship is the attitude we are to have for God. Everything we give to God that is right, is worship. "Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your spiritual act of worship"

Lastly, I see what was said about the fear of God compelling us to worship. I think that compelling drive to worship God isnt the fear, I think that drive is where the holy fear comes from. I dont know what to call it.

John


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John C. Kelly

 2004/7/16 19:45Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Hi John
Yes, the English word's etymology is interesting. I see it as linking not only with 'giving worth' but assessing worth. In a sense, when we say God is worthy, we are passing our legitimate judgment in saying 'this is the value that I put upon Him'. Stated like that it sounds very man-centred, but God reveals Himself so that we can respond to Him, and the response of worship is partly that of 'ascribing greatness' to God. (Deut 32:3)

In that vaste crowd my voice will be heard; He is worthy; that's my verdict and my response is 'worship' in its fullest sense of loving surrender to the One whose presence fills us with awe.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/17 3:38Profile
Delboy
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Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re: Fillial fear

Hi Ron, you wrote in a thread about the meaning of fillial fear,I can't remember where.Would you re-enlighten me as i think this woould add to the discussion.Thanks


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derek Eyre

 2004/7/17 11:48Profile





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