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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 2 Samuel 14:17, spiritual gift of discernment?

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themumfs
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Joined: 2008/4/3
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 2 Samuel 14:17, spiritual gift of discernment?

i have a question about this passage, which reads

"Then your maidservant said, 'Please let the word of my lord the king be comforting, for as the angel of God, so is my lord the king to discern good and evil. And may the Lord your God be with you.'" (2Sam. 14:17, NASB)

this seems to imply that David (the king) had what we know in corinthians to be described as the spiritual gift of discernment. But this is before christ and the coming of the holy spirit. Yes the Holy Spirit did come upon David, but that doesnt meant that he had the holy spirit dwelling inside him as is the situation post cruicifixion. Also, joab states in this verse that david is "as the angel of God" what does it all mean???

 2008/4/3 0:54Profile









 Re: 2 Samuel 14:17, spiritual gift of discernment?

David is quoted more than anyone [psalms] in the new testament. The Word says "As the Holy Spirit spoke THROUGH THE MOUTHS OF THE PROHETS" David's messianic predictions are prolific compared to other prophets. In on of the Psalms, David cries"TAKE NOT YOUR HOLY SPIRIT FROM ME, AND RESTORE UNTO ME THE JOY OF THY SALVATION"



Whether or not he was born again, it is obvious that David had a deep and profound relationship with the Father. He saw the Lord in full battle array with His sword drawn at the future temple site, FACE TO FACE. [he became terrified for days] The Lord spoke to him often, with great clarity, including eternal truths concerning Jesus, and His cross, given to no other man, that fed Israel for a thousand years, and as I have noted, Jesus quoted David more than any other, as His word.



Out of David came the Messiah Himself,["SON OF DAVID, HAVE MERCY ON US" [the lepers cry], and all of the Kings of Judah, there-by the Holy Seed of God. There are more DIRECT promises, from the Lord, through Davids lips, than any other prophet {I believe,] and with out doubt, David has been sung by more people than any man in human history.



David delivered Israel in more spectacular fashion than any other man,[ beginning as cowering squatters terrified of the
philistines, ending as the Ruler of all Nations, with incredible wealth and prestige], and David himself was the recipient of many well known miracles that are spoken of worldwide today, in all nations. He also was known by God and man as a man who had the privilege to Inquire the Lord Himself DIRECTLY, like a handful of chosen prophets in human history.


An Angel, is a messenger of God, either to deliver His Word, deliverance, provision, or wrath. David accomplished all of these, with regularity[not without failure, obviously] and forever has a name with the greatest. He is AS an angel of god.



I believe that I will see David seated among the 24 Shepard's around the throne. I will be surprised if not. Do you think that maybe, when the time comes, he might be the very first to cast his crown down to cry worthy is the Lamb? David revealed MERCY as no one other than Jesus Himself as an attribute of YAHWEH, and 1000 years before the advent of the Messiah, he sang," I will sing of the mercies of the Lord forever".


The cross itself is mercy, subduing the enemies of the Lord...The world, our satanic self natures, and the Devil himself, with all of his followers. "The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at My Right Hand until I make your enemies your footstool." [JESUS SPEAKING OF HIMSELF SPEAKING THROUGH DAVID, IN THE PSALMS].


David had discernment by capturing God's heart as no other. Brother Tom.

 2008/4/3 10:17
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
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 Re:

Hi themumfs...

Quote:
this seems to imply that David (the king) had what we know in corinthians to be described as the spiritual gift of discernment. But this is before christ and the coming of the holy spirit. Yes the Holy Spirit did come upon David, but that doesnt meant that he had the holy spirit dwelling inside him as is the situation post cruicifixion.

Interesting question!

While I am not entirely certain that what David displayed was a [i]spiritual[/i] gift of discernment (ala I Corinthians), it is possible that his discernment was directed by the Lord. Remember, the "gifts" were present in the Old Testament (in a much different sense) when the prophets prophesied and when Elijah and Elisha performed miracles. Even King Saul was counted amongst the prophets at a time when he wasn't necessarily acting very "spiritual" (I Samuel 19:24). Were these [i]spiritual gifts[/i] or simply the result of the Spirit of the Lord coming [i]upon[/i] an individual?

[b]What is “discernment?”[/b]

I think that we really need a good study in what "discernment" really is. What does it mean to discern? Most dictionaries will equate discernment with intellectual or sensory recognition, perception, detection, and an ability to distinguish or decipher between matters. The New Testament speaks about “discernment of spirits” or “discernment between spirits” (I Corinthians 12:10). It seems that this is referring to a supernatural gift from God to distinguish between “spirits.” Are the “spirits” here speaking of [i]spiritual beings[/i] or [i]attitudes[/i] (or both)? I tend to believe that this gift is comprehensive enough to cover both.

On the surface, each person has an ability to “discern.” Of course, this doesn’t mean that it is a spiritual gift, but more of cognitive deduction. We are presented with various paths or decisions in life and we make a decision about those things. We often make decisions based upon discernment achieved through years of experience. This natural discernment often is derived from lessons learned and is often equated with wisdom. Every person, every parent and every leader exercises this natural form of discernment in everyday life. One might say that we need “discernment” right now to “discern” whether or not someone’s “gift of discernment” is truly the result of a gift from God.

It appears to me that a true “gift of discernment” is a supernatural ability to distinguish between individuals, intent, or situations that are completely undecipherable on the surface. Of course, there is a strong risk of individuals who claim such a gift who then use it to gossip, argue or manipulate the opinions of those around them. This, in my opinion, is a telling sign that such a person does NOT exercise such a gift. Why would God place such a gift into a person with such intent?

[b]“God told me…!” or “God showed me…”[/b]

How often have we heard, during a discussion about important matters, a person invoke the “God told me” or “God showed me” response? Whether we are discussing a matter as simple as the color of carpet in our church buildings or important issues of doctrine, someone will inevitably utter these words. I am convinced that these people, although well-meaning, are not REALLY hearing God most of the time. It is my perspective that they are just trying to add weight to their opinion – especially in matters that are not vitally important. I once heard a pastor reply to a person who invoked the “God showed me” remark. He said, “[i]Did God really ‘show’ you that or did you just figure it out[/i]?” This pastor did not mean to be offensive, but to express how we often invoke God on the side of our opinion when we either used simple logic, wisdom or experience to arrive to our conclusion.

[b]Gifted “discerners” with poor discernment…[/b]

I have seen some individuals claim a "gift" or "ministry" of discernment -- yet their actions reflected gossip, cynicism, condemnation and pride. Yet they spoke of their “gift” in an almost boastful manner. Is this the result of “discernment?” Or is this simply someone simply become “wise in their own eyes” and claiming that their “discernment” is a product of the Lord? When their “discernment” is rejected, such individuals typically invoke the same defense used by many would-be prophets who claim that such rejection is because “[i]prophets are misunderstood and rejected[/i] and “[i]most people just don’t understand the office of a prophet[/i].” Some people that parade their “gifts” of discernment (and prophecy) often grow annoyed when someone chooses to question or examine their words. It seems that they fail to recognize that we are called to “test everything” (I Thessalonians 5:21) remembering that the “spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophet” (I Corinthians 14:32).

Unfortunately, most of the believers that I have encountered (particularly those who almost boast about their “gift”) seldom exhibit a truly Biblical utility of such a gift. It seems that many who claim the gift often end up casting “surface judgment” that is simply based upon their limited understanding of the situation. In other words, they end up “figuring things out” by leaning on their own understanding while attributing this understanding to the Lord.

I understand that most of these individuals truly believed that they are gifted by God for such things. Yet we must ask how they are profiting both themselves and the Kingdom of God? Many churches today have endured (yes, endured) the wiles of a person who publicly boasts such a gift. When their words are rejected or questioned, these individuals revert to the “poor me” syndrome. They claim that the examination or rejection of their words might either be personal – or possibly a rejection of truth. In turn, these brethren often question the ability of others to “discern” – including the leadership of the local Church. I have heard and even witnessed instances of “watchmen” and “prophets” who lead a quiet [u]rebellion[/u] against an individual or an authority. Most of the time, these individuals do not realize the damage that they create. They simply cannot fathom how an individual or a leader cannot arrive to the same conclusion or “recognize the truth.”

[b]We need discernment![/b]

We are living in the troubling times. There is a need for true, Biblical discernment more than ever before! Why? Not all things are as they appear. The surface of a matter does not always reflect the inner truth of a situation. Often, the surface reflects an image that masks the inner depth of a situation. Too often, we judge things by what we see on the surface which is often hindered by our limited eyesight or even our own reflection. True discernment sees past the surface. It looks past the gossip, past the rumors and even past the apparent “facts” of a situation. True discernment is the ability to understand the guidance, understanding and heart of God regarding a matter.

How often have we arrived to a conclusion only to later learn that our initial observations upon which that conclusion was based were either partially or entirely incorrect? How often have individuals cast judgment on a situation based upon a limited perspective? How often do people use their “discernment” as an attempt to direct the beliefs, persuasions or opinions of a group? True discernment is not hasty. It is not proud. It allows for patient examination of a warning so that a truth can be determined. Unfortunately, this is seldom seen in those who wear a badge of discernment. Even many of the “discernment ministries” found online simply appeal to readers or adherents to believe in a certain way.

Even the “gifted” Church in Corinthians lacked the utilization of true spiritual discernment. Sure, they were “flowing” in the gifts. People were prophesying, speaking in tongues, etc… -- but they were in the midst of vile, unrepentant sin (I Corinthians 5). One individual had a sexual relationship with his own mother! This was not gossip, rumors, insinuations or even questionable allegations. This wasn’t past sin that was washed away by Christ’s blood. This was current, unrepentant sin that Paul even claimed that the Church was proud of (verse 2)! Yet people were still prophesying. People were still speaking in tongues. Where was the gift of discernment?

This is why discernment is needed. We need humble servants of the Cross who can obtain the opinion of God in a matter and gently direct a situation accordingly. We don’t need for gossips, fear mongers, conspiracy theorists or opinionated minds to muddle the water between truth and rumor. We need believers who can discern between truth and falsehood. We need believers who can discern between intent and attitudes. We need believers who can discern between spirits (because not every spirit truly comes from God). We need to believers who can look past the surface evidence and see the truth that lay only in the mind of Christ. We need believers who receive their discernment from the heart of God rather than a hasty examination of individuals, situations or doctrine. We need truth, spoken in love, which always points the individual and collective Church toward the end result desired by God. Otherwise, we are simply chasing the wind.

The end of all of these gifts – whether discernment or prophesy – is to reveal the truth and love of God to both the Church and a lost and dying world. Without such love, our gifts are but a sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. May the Lord gift the Church with true spiritual discernment!

:-)


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Christopher

 2008/4/3 13:51Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

1 Samuel 16:13

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

The Spirit of God according to Scripture never left David. It says in this Scripture that the Spirit came upon David...just like what happened at Pentecost...when Peter quoted Joel.

In the solid teachings of Denny Kenaston you will find a wealth of Scriptural teaching on the Holy Spirit's work in David...

http://www.charityministries.org/msg_detail.a5w?vlast_index=SET146

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2008/4/3 15:08Profile
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 Re: 2 Samuel 14:17, spiritual gift of discernment?

Hi everyone.

themumfs, how are you?


Welcome to the forums also.


About the question you brought up for us...



I think the discernment that is in view here has to do with making good or wise or right judgments. Not that this would not be a gift, but I do not think it is the same as is in 1Cor 12:10, for instance.





In 2Samuel 23, king David says


"The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me, He that ruleth over men [i]must be[/i] just, ruling in the fear of God"


That's what I think is in view here in this passage too.


In our text, David is asked by this woman to judge in a matter(which all appears to be a ruse, at the instigation of Joab, in order to get him to bring Absalom, the king's son, who had killed one of his brothers, back to Jerusalem).


So when the woman says to him


"The word of my lord the king shall now be comfortable: for as an angel of God, so [i]is[/i] my lord the king to discern good and bad..."


I think she is saying he is going to do what is right because he is like one that speaks for God or that rules with God's wisdom(for "an angel of God" compare here with Ex 23:20-23, Dan 4:17, Luke 1:19-20).






Just a bit further on it would seem that David perceived that Joab was behind this. But how might that be significant?


Well, isn't it true that there is more to making righteous judgments in this world than applying right morals to the "obvious facts" at hand? And don't we too often find that things are not quite as they may have seemed at first?



When Adam and Eve sinned, the scripture says that God said of them


"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:"



And so to live as God? And to make the right decisions about the good and evil that they now knew.



But how hard is that! So often, don't we find that we just don't know enough to make the right decisions in life? How many things are hidden from us when we have to make descisons about furture events or about others around us? How on earth can we possibly know everything there is to know and do what is absolutely right? And besides that all of the inner conflicts and pressures that cloud our judgments.




We need wisdom from God. Because He sees all things clearly. We need Him.


And that's what I think David had. God was with him in the decisions that he made(1Samuel 18:14).




Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/4/3 20:21Profile
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 Re:

Brother Chris wrote...

Quote:
We need wisdom from God. Because He sees all things clearly. We need Him.






Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.


According to Scripture all wisdom that is of God comes from the Holy Spirit. Whether it is David or Paul, the wisdom that they received is given to those to turn toward Him. This is the promise found in verse 23...

"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make my words known unto you."

Man cannot know the wisdom of God unless He speaks to man. The Counselor is given so that we might know His will. David was annointed with the Holy Spirit to know God's words. David was conformed into the image of God's Son. That is the only way that David might have a heart that pleases the Father.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2008/4/4 8:35Profile
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 Re:

Rookie wrote:


""David was conformed into the image of God's Son. That is the only way that David might have a heart that pleases the Father.""

Where does it say the David was conformed into the Image of Jesus Christ?

And, The Christ in you is the only One that is pleasing to the Father. God does not even put me in the equation, that is why He birthed His Son in us, only because we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Christ in you the Hope of Glory is the only one He deals with, that conforming us to the image of His Son.

Ephesians 2:20-22 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Temple of Christ in you, The Temple of the Holy Spirit, The Temple of God the Father.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

It takes being born again to be formed into the image of God's Son. Then it is the Christ in us that is the Wisdom of God, the Holy Spirit is the teacher of this truth.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It is the Life of Jesus Christ the Sperm of God, in an act of Love that Jesus Christ is now our new life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Phl 3:10 That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death;

This is the Holy Spirit:

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is what the Holy Spirit was sent for, to teach us who this Christ that is now our life, that has been born again in us, who He truly is.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

What Day:? The day of Pentecost.

Teacher of the Christ that is in us:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Christ is our Life and all that the Father is, for they both make their abode in us and with us. The Holy Spirit is specifically spoken of seven times in John 14,15,16 and 17 as our Teacher. The Power is the Life of Christ in us, the teacher of this power is the Holy Spirit who is now in us forever and will teach us Christ for all eternity.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Still our Teacher, not the Life, for only Christ is our Life. Only Christ is our Seed, Only Christ is our link to the Father, Only Christ and the Seed of the Father which is Christ, has made us son's of God.

John 16:7-15 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Why, Christ in us and not the Holy Spirit being our life.

John 17:20-23 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This is the difference in the old testament and the New Testament in His Blood.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Our only Glory:

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Christ is not the Holy Spirit. Christ is our life, the Holy Spirit is the Teacher of our life in Christ.


In Christ: Phillip

"



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Phillip

 2008/4/4 17:05Profile
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 Re:

Hi again everyone,


A couple of examples from scripture come to mind also,


"And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counseled in those days, [i]was[/i] as if a man had inquired at the oracle of God: so [i]was[/i] all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom. "

- 2Sam 16:23(KJV)



And in Isaiah, Cyrus is called the Lord's anointed. See Isaiah 45:1-13.




I don't think we need to make more of this than it is. God graciously gives wisdom to all sorts of men. For His own purposes.




Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/4/5 4:38Profile
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 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:


Quote:
Where does it say the David was conformed into the Image of Jesus Christ?



From where do men say that Scriptures teach that David is a "type" of Christ?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2008/4/5 8:00Profile
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 Re:

Brother Chris wrote:


Quote:
I don't think we need to make more of this than it is. God graciously gives wisdom to all sorts of men. For His own purposes.




This is very true. We find this precept clearly taught in Romans 1 and Proverbs 1-2.

But in respect to what Scripture teaches on the life of David we are given a rich testimony of a man who's heart was fashioned by God so that as Scripture says,

Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, “I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’

Please notice the very last thought of this particular Scripture...

"a man after My own heart, who will do all My will."

How does God enable David so that this Scripture is not broken but remains true? What is God's provision?

In Christ
Jeff




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Jeff Marshalek

 2008/4/5 8:12Profile





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