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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God's grace runs out.

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PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
First why the question?



I was thinking that if there are no examples of God killing someone that we know was justified before God then that would show that God doesn't kill believers and "take them to heaven early."


Quote:
""Are there any examples in the Bible where God killed someone and we know that they were justified before God and not in rebellion? Or that we know "went to heaven?" Other than Jesus of course""

Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

I think Paul was justified. Even unto his death.

And Peter, Phillip, and even others for Christs Name Sake.



I don't believe God struck those men dead. I don't think suffering according to the will of God is the same as God killing you.


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 10:56Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

Here are a few people that come to mind that God killed.
-----------

Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Num 16:20 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Num 16:21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all [their] goods.

Act 12:21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
Act 12:22 And the people gave a shout, [saying, It is] the voice of a god, and not of a man.
Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

There is more..


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 11:08Profile









 Re: God's grace runs out


Hi Josh,

So... you don't go with Ron Bailey's suggestion of

Quote:
timed executions

expounded more fully on p2 in his post which I quoted? ... Moses?

 2008/4/8 11:53
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
expounded more fully on p2 in his post which I quoted? ... Moses?



Moses is an interesting example. I'll think about it more but I don't see it to be quite the same as the thought that God will kill a believer if they stay in persistent sin- and we are sure that they really are justified before God. Moses did sin and surely the reason he didn't enter the promise land was because of that, but I don't think that example lines up with MacArthur's definition of this doctrine unless we say that Moses persisted in this sin. But then again... my below examples don't really show someone persisting in sin, but one act.

Quote:

reformer wrote:
1 John 5:16-17
"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not [i][b]leading[/b][/i] to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin [i][b]not[/i][/b] leading to death. There is a sin [i][b]leading[/b][/i] to death; I do not say the he should not make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin [i][b]not[/i][/b] leading to death."

John Macarthur: [i]"Such a sin could be any premeditated and unconfessed sin that causes the Lord to determine to end a believer's life. It is not one particular sin like homosexuality or lying, but whatever sin is the final one in the tolerance of God. Failure to repent of and forsake sin may eventually lead to physical death as a judgment of God."[/i]


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 12:36Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
It is not one particular sin like homosexuality or lying, but whatever sin is the final one in the tolerance of God.



Rereading it his definition does allow for it to be one sin..


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 12:49Profile









 Re: God's grace runs out



Hi Josh,

I think we need to be very careful to separate the Old and New Covenant dispensations, for without doubt, despite his sin, Moses was justified by faith, and we know he is alive because he appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus.

But for the 'believer' since Pentecost, there is ample in the New Testament about faith, including 'the just shall live by faith', which makes the faith of the 'believer' the crucial factor. Yes, it is faith in His death, that in His life we are being and will be raised.

So... where is the room for McArthur's fuzzy, oxymoronic definition of the mindset he is willing to attribute to some 'believers'.

Those who call themselves Christians bear a huge responsibility to [u]be[/u] in Christ. There can be unconfessed sin, but if this is not part of their lifestyle anymore, it is not nearly in the same category as 'premeditated' or [i]persistent[/i] sin, whose lives show no submission to the word of God, or attempts to drag that sin into the captivity of the obedience of Christ.

I can think of several public figures, the impact of whose fearless mockery of truth, was, I believe, contributory to their early demise. I'm not going to name them. But, they have in common that they themselves were party to productions which either denied God by default, or made light of truth and death. One would never have believed they were Christians, even if they protested it vociferously.

I feel McArthur's use of the term 'believer' is unwarranted, because anyone who dies outside of God's grace, cannot [u]be[/u] [i]believing[/i].


Do you see what I'm getting at?

It is the operation of [i][b]faith[/b][/i] which opens God's grace to us, and we [u]stand[/u] in His grace, [u]because[/u] we believe...




 2008/4/8 12:59
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
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 Re:

Dorcas,

Since you don't believe 1 John is talking about God judging a believer by physical death, do you think that doctrine is explicitly taught anywhere else or just implied?


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 12:59Profile
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Quote:

Do you see what I'm getting at?



Ah, we posted at the same time. Yes, I agree with you.


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 13:02Profile









 Re: God's grace runs out


Josh asked,

Quote:
do you think that doctrine is explicitly taught anywhere else or just implied?

I don't think it's implied at all. We have no record of anyone being struck dead or swallowed up by the earth in the New Testament. As Peter in particular emphasises, these historical events are mentioned for our admonition. We ignore them at our own spiritual peril.

I believe the New Testament exhibits very little fear of physical death. Dying was seen in the context of faith, an event by which one was proved true, rather than proved a failure.

Failures don't get to die, necessarily, because they are busy trying to evade physical suffering, compromising, showing themselves unworthy to bear Christ's name. This is why the many calls to [u]repentance[/u], early in Revelation.

I believe the death to which John is referring, is eternal death; that it is clearly laid out in Mark's gospel (3:30) - the sin which cannot be forgiven, is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.


[color=6633FF]Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [i]world[/i] to come. [/color]


'neither in the world to come' is an interesting clause I have not noticed before. It seems to be there to block the doctrine which tells folk they can be forgiven after death, or, it operated only until Christ had come...

I've never heard this discussed... what do you think?





 2008/4/8 13:18
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
'neither in the world to come' is an interesting clause I have not noticed before. It seems to be there to block the doctrine which tells folk they can be forgiven after death, or, it operated only until Christ had come...

I've never heard this discussed... what do you think?



I think he is saying there is no hope of forgiveness ever- in this age or the age to come. I know that sounds like a red wagon definition*, but I think that is all he means.

*I once had a teacher tell us not to give definitions like this: Q)What is a red wagon? A)A wagon that is red.

Quote:
We have no record of anyone being struck dead or swallowed up by the earth in the New Testament.



There are a few: Ananias, Sapphira, and Herod. But I don't think they were under God's grace.


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 14:06Profile





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