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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God's grace runs out.

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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 766

 God's grace runs out.

1 John 5:16-17
"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not [i][b]leading[/b][/i] to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin [i][b]not[/i][/b] leading to death. There is a sin [i][b]leading[/b][/i] to death; I do not say the he should not make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin [i][b]not[/i][/b] leading to death."

John Macarthur: [i]"Such a sin could be any premeditated and unconfessed sin that causes the Lord to determine to end a believer's life. It is not one particular sin like homosexuality or lying, but whatever sin is the final one in the tolerance of God. Failure to repent of and forsake sin may eventually lead to physical death as a judgment of God."[/i]

A scary thought to meditate on how God views sin in the believer's life. When does grace run its course? Is it unrepentant sin or sin that causes you to struggle and slip. How then does 1 John 1:8-9 come into play. May we all take a hard look at our sin, and pray that God will grant us the repentance and the His strength to standfast when the waters rise. May the Lord show me my sin through His word and His spirit. May we hate sin and glory in the redemption of the savior.

 2008/3/24 7:02Profile

 Re: God's grace runs out.

I have understood the sin which cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, as when the scribes accuse Jesus of having a demon, calling Him 'unclean' - Mark 3:22 - 30. Elsewhere in the New Testament, Pharisees make the same accusation.

John Macarthur: [i]"Such a sin could be any premeditated and unconfessed sin that causes the Lord to determine to end a believer's life. It is not one particular sin like homosexuality or lying, but whatever sin is the final one in the tolerance of God. Failure to repent of and forsake sin may eventually lead to physical death as a judgment of God."[/i]

I'm sure there is a last time to refuse God. This is clear from several of the parables. I came close to refusing His grace that 'last time', but was stopped in my tracks by a preacher who pointed out (from the end of Rom 1), that if one became [i]implaccable[/i], one was [i]beyond[/i] God's reach. God was still calling to me, and I did turn, and began to demolish the defences I'd erected.

However, no-one blasphemes against the Holy Spirit accidentally. It is a specific insult to God, chosen with full knowledge by the one who makes it.

There are many ways to express doubt about who God is, His existence and power, or His interest in the lives of individuals, which are acceptable to Him.

Note, He who comes to God 'must believe that He is' (Heb 11:6). I would suggest: He who insults God, also believes 'that He is'.

 2008/3/24 8:26

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 766


However, no-one blasphemes against the Holy Spirit accidentally. It is a specific insult to God, chosen with full knowledge by the one who makes it.

Hey Dorcas,

Are you saying that the text refers more to apostasy than continuing in sin or better struggling with a specific sin? I have heard the claim that some view this text as, like you indicated blasphemy against the holy spirit.

Am I reading this correctly...John Macarthur is being a Pharisee?

Appreciate your comments...BTW how are you doing?


 2008/3/24 12:45Profile

 Re: God's grace runs out

Hi reformer,

God is faithful to me, thank you, and His gracious leading I both acknowledge and desire.

Are you saying that the text refers more to apostasy than continuing in sin or better struggling with a specific sin?

[color=6633FF]1 John 5:16, 17 YLT
If any one may see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give to him life to those sinning not unto death; there is sin to death, not concerning it do I speak that he may beseech; all unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not unto death.[/color]

I think this statement has to be taken in the context of what John has already written about not sinning, our Advocate with the Father [i][b]if[/i][/b] we sin, and what Jude says about making a difference so as to pull some out of the fire; (these are just a few thoughts).

Here is Matthew's fuller account of Jesus' teaching I quoted from Mark.

[color=6633FF]Chapter 12
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast [i]them[/i] out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: [u]but the blasphemy[/u] [i]against[/i] [u]the[/u] [i]Holy[/i] [u]Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men[/u].
32 [b]And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the[/b] [i]world[/i] [b]to come.[/b]

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [i]his[/i] fruit.

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. [/color]

We'll get back to what John McArthur said, if necessary, when you've had time to consider Matthew and John together.

:-) How are you?

 2008/3/24 14:01

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 766


How are you?

Doing good, have taken sometime away from SI.

getting back to your rebuttal, what about Luke 13:7-9
[b]"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. 'Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
"And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but, if not, cut it down.'"[/b]

What you have stated makes perfect sense and quite convincing, however, it leaves me still with the question, God's grace runs out for the believer. But, then as I look at 1 John 5:18 your statement makes much more sense,being in line with blasphemy statement; verses a genuine believer sinning and continuing in it. But, I have not conceded yet, let me give it more thought...based on my other verse description in Luke 13, I still must hold my view...but you have gave me food for thought!!

talk to you later

I would like to talk about Macarthur..but not on the would only create a "feeding frenzy"!! lets email each other. I will send you a PM brother.

 2008/3/24 20:14Profile

 Re: God's grace runs out

Hi Mike,

Glad to hear you are well. :-)

God's grace runs out for the believer

I didn't like to say so at the beginning of the thread, but I'm not keen on the title you've chosen, because I don't believe it. I feel it is subtley feeding the reader an error of thinking.

God's grace doesn't run out for [i]the believer[/i].

But, believers sometimes struggle with faith, when temptations and attacks come, and they fall. But the need for a Christian to be tried (proved), is largely for his own sake, not God's. And, we have an Advocate, and, being born again, we can.... not sin.

God is not really testing [i]our faith[/i], but our hearts, to see whether we be settled and established in the faith. What is 'the faith'? It is 'the faith of Jesus Christ'.

Are we abiding in Him, so that fruit is naturally being borne through our relationship with Him, or, are we in a closer relationship with the world, self, and sin? Which relationship do we [i]intend[/i] will eventually survive? What we really think in our hearts, is what we will do.

[color=6633FF]1 Peter 1
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, [i]even[/i] the salvation of [i]your[/i] souls. [/color]

The [i]believer[/i] is going to receive an endless supply of God's Spirit, to enable him to win through in the trials he must inevitably face.

Philippians 1:19, 20

It is the [u]un[/u]believer for whom God's grace may run out. (By unbeliever I mean in this sense: the Christian who keeps on reverting to unbelief instead of faith, and sins because he refuses to believe God can and will enable him to overcome.)

I believe this happens to a lot of people who have never been told [u]victory over sin[/u] is what Jesus won for us. They've been led to believe He [only] died to [i]forgive[/i] their sins, (and it's [i]up to them[/i] to work out how to stop sinning), but if you think about this for just a second, you'll remember sins were being forgiven by the God of Calvary, before Calvary, although the Old Covenant made no provision to forgive. What is new through Jesus, is the power and authority to [u]cease from sin[/u], which is in their hands [u]by faith[/u], and thus [i]faith[/i] needs to be [u]exercised[/u] whenever sin is the issue.

This is the gospel - that through faith we receive [u]and can keep[/u] such a righteousness, that we obtain eternal life; we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, and our robes are laundered in His blood to keep them white.

Is this making sense?

 2008/3/24 21:22

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


It sounds like we all think that God is more interested in our sin than He is in our justification unto life in Christ Jesus.

I don't see this in scripture. God is only interested in the One that pleased Him, and there was only One and He has been the only Only One since from before the foundation of the world, and unto its end and beyond, that will ever be pleasing to Him.

If we are in Christ Jesus, we are under no condemnation. It is the Grace of God that saves us, Keeps us, teaches us this Christ and He only see's in us this Christ. It is God's choice whom He will give this Grace and the Faith of Jesus Christ to. We are under a great misconception if we think we are the ones that are pleasing God in any way. As Paul; Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

That is why we are not to pray for the sin of death. It is the life and light of Christ that gives us all that we are. If we think we can work up enough super faith and works to become pleasing to God, we insult Him. How would you feel if you had given all that you had, His only begotten Son and then have someone tell you, I will bring my life into justice before you God and thanks for the Cross, but now I will make you happy by my works. I don't believe God will be happy with anyone that is making his own life, be it in sin or not in sin, that having anything to do with who we are in Christ Jesus. It was done at the Cross and we need to stay in that life and that Grace and that Faith that God has provided for our salvation. It is not me, that keeps me in Christ, it is not me that keeps me under no condemnation, it is not me that can even say I can do it, only in Christ can I do all things.

It is the Power of God in Christ Jesus that give me life and That is Christ, He is the only One that is pleasing to God. I am pleasing to God by Him and Him only that is born again in me.

This is the only hope of Glory that I can conceive that is possible. It is Christ in me, period......

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's working are we striving in to make us perfect and pleasing to God? Forget the sin leading to death, it cannot happen for those that are in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

I am already dead to sin, I was crucified with Him on His Cross and when His dead head head fell on the dead shoulders of His ravaged body, I was dead also with Him and to sin.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is Christ in us that give us life and breath and it is in Him in whom we live and move and have our being.

Ephesians 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

There will never be sin unto death for those that are in Christ Jesus for God will not crucify His Son anew for anyone.

There is only one sin leading to death and that is not believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. This is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, for what is His Job?

John 16:8-9 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;

In Christ, Perfect before the Father by the only One that is pleasing to Him:



 2008/3/24 22:59Profile

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 766


Yes it makes sense. Naturally it is better to believe and except what you have said verses what I have made mention of. Are those that hold the opinion that God's grace will run out for the disobedient believer and take him home early wrong? I have heard many say judge it through what 2000 years of Christianity has said about it. I have searched through some commentaries and have read the same thing along with the blasphemy believe as well.If Mathews, Barnes, Clarke and so on pretty much say the same thing wouldn't that surmise we or I could be wrong? Generally what I am saying is if I interpret scripture in a text I will often check myself with what others have said.

Another reason I bring this is up; my friend who was divorced and remarried was having a hard time serving in the seemed that the leadership would not let him serve in a small capacity with the youth. He finally got to meet with the youth pastor and my friend explained to him about the divorce...short story long, the pastor basically told him that he was still alive, if it was disobedience God would have took him home early. Apparently, the pastor holds this belief because he is convinced that it happened to his friend.

Am I convinced about this text, no, Do I know much about anything...NO. I will confess I do struggle with certain aspects of God, trying to get my mind wrapped around who HE really is, instead of letting my anxieties of my childhood life dictate who God is or accept who He is. Sometimes it is hard for me to see that God accepts me! That HE truly loves me...I know what the bible says...but still I have to remind myself who God is. I did grow up with a distorted view in my early walk.

Do you still Skype?


 2008/3/25 6:02Profile

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 766


Well said Phillip...I often make the mistake when I read a book in the bible and the theme and background takes you along a certain path.. I can get one dimensional in my approach to scripture. I will forget about other the one's you have just made mention of. I realize that I don't know how to study as I should and make a stronger efficient manner of study.

We are under a great misconception if we think we are the ones that are pleasing God in any way.



 2008/3/25 6:14Profile

 Re: When God's grace runs out

Mike said

I realize that I don't know how to study as I should and make a stronger efficient manner of study.

This may not be ideal and certainly it's not formal 'study', but I've been very blessed by the Lord bringing revelation to my understanding, which has sent me into scripture to follow a word, or a theme, through the cross-references, until I find myself looking at verses I've already seen.

What this does, is define the limits of a word or spiritual truth, to show what things are linked together in God's heart and mind, and how He expresses those thoughts to us, repetitively (often) through scripture.

For instance, here is a simple example I happened across (which I didn't know before I happened across it in scripture), that references to 'a pit' carry with them the idea of being unable to get out; worse, a pit is a 'dry place'; so one is imprisoned in a place without water. This is in contrast to His promise to make us those out of whom flow [i]rivers[/i] of [u]living[/u] water.

However a person ends up in a pit, the spiritual necessity is that only God can get one out... or feed, or give to drink, there. The 'dry pit without water' is a kind of biblical code for being in prison and left to starve, thirst and die there, for as long as that person\people is unwilling to obey\believe God's word. He really is interested in the response to Him of every single individual who ever lived. It's awesome and terrifying at the same time.

Many other word studies yield the same kind of fruit, and how we should respond to His word - to [u]live[/u] by it.

 2008/4/2 7:21

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