Santa Clara, CA
| Re: What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry|
Wonder if the last section doesn't go a very long way in answering so many questions. I am hesitating to answer yours directly only since we have seen so much disorder come about by even broaching this now supper sensitive subject. That it is sensitive is telling itself but I digress.
All throughout this there is a constant underwriting to it all for all. [i]Let everything be done decently and in order[/i]. There most have been something of a commotion going on in the first place to need this kind of address and it is interesting the parallels to that which takes place here in this forum. It is a form of assembly, though with both limitations and great differences, so to hold it all down tightly to the nuances of the text ...
There are so many other admonitions surrounding confusion as just a stand alone word; who the author is, where strife comes into play, rebellion and usurping of authority (I like very much the way Matthew Henry treated that aspect there), quarrels and debates (as opposed to discussion), meddling and gossip, backbiting and infighting, evil imaginations and suspicions ... it just goes on and on, and there it is, [i]confusion[/i] - "Out of order" and maybe to put it to the differences of sexes - "Out of character". The extrapolations keep coming, even contentment and the roles we are assigned by design ... so much seems to be intertwined in just orderly business, order itself .. it's clean and pure and even authoritative on it's own merits. It seems to be an abiding principle, one that if we had it in full measure seems to me would make all the questions of particulars far easier to understand and maybe even much less a concern.
| 2008/3/23 19:15||Profile|
| Re: What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry|
Ok lets say these things are in order. Is the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit still received in Church in an orderly manner OR is this wordy commentary just a long post in an effort to doing away with the gifts of the Spirit altogether? In other words is it the belief of the poster in the first place that God doesn't do any of these things anymore, that it all died in the first century.
The reason why the questions is because I know Baptists and other churches that don't believe in the manifest gifts of the Spirit yet when they defend their stand they jump to the scriptures in regards to Paul speaking to the Corinthian church in doing all things in an orderly manner. Thus they excuse themselves from ever being responsible if God should ever put upon them a gifting or even the gift of the holy Spirit.
| 2008/3/23 20:47|
Just wondering how you square this with the word of God in 1 Cor 14:1 "Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts,..."
Following after charity I understand would be an exhortation to obtain charity - agape love, but that does not seem to negate seeking the gifts, and Paul directs them which spiritual gift to prefer, from a principle of charity.
[i]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16, 22-25[/i]
Its so important to pull all the Scripture together. Paul gives instruction to "Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts,..." and he also instructs us to Walk in the Spirit.
If we seek after spiritual gifts but neglect to walk in the Spirit, something is wrong! And the question comes forth: can one really be operating in the gifts of the Spirit without truly walking in the Holy Spirit? The evidence of true spiritual gifts in a life is found in the fruit that flows from that life.
[i]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2[/i]
Its not a negating of desiring spiritual gifts, but rather a focus on being filled with the Holy Spirit and having that fruit come forth from our lives. Its really obedience to Gods Word all of it. :-)
Hope that is a little clearer.
Sorry, brother Mike, for taking a bunny trail here...hmm, I'll tie it together by saying that if one is operating in their 'spiritual gift', yet is bringing confusion and disorder to the Body in a manner that is disobedient to God's Word, than that operation of that gift cannot be of God,
[i] "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Cor. 14:33[/i]
| 2008/3/23 21:04|
That it is sensitive is telling itself ...
I could have resisted to comment here, in the light of our recent conversation about the setting which SI provides (and does not provide), and in which there are those who insist this is not Church, and those who have fellowship here as their [i]only[/i] church. So I wonder...
Can you have it [i]both[/i] ways .... ?
| 2008/3/23 23:38|
The fruit of the Spirit is the evidence of the Spirit being in your life just like apples on a tree guarantee that a tree is truly an apple tree, and a healthy one at that. Apple trees also have great blossoms too, but you have to have the fruit to be able to reproduce (you need the seed from inside the fruit). A tree having apple blossoms without producing fruit is nothing more than a show and it doesn't amount to much.
If you have apples, be sure you are going to have blossoms too. If you have the fruit of the spirit you're going to have some gifts also.
| 2008/3/24 14:09||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: What?|
The honour of God requires that things should be managed in Christian assemblies so as not to transgress the rules of natural decency. If they are managed in a tumultuous and confused manner, what a notion must this give of the God who is worshipped, to considerate observers! Does it look as if he were the God of peace and order, and an enemy to confusion? Things should be managed so in divine worship that no unlovely nor dishonourable notion of God should be formed in the minds of observers.
| 2008/3/24 22:01||Profile|
| Re: What? Came the word of God ...?|
Quote:Um....... This is a commonly held sentiment, and I know Ron Bailey shared that church leaders should be those respected by those in the world in their local communitites, but, how the Church declares herself to the world [u]in worship[/u] of the Only True and Living God, is not necessarily the same. 'Observers' are not the to be the controlling consideration, or pride would prevent many from ever taking that final step, by which they would break through into His glorious presence.
Things should be managed so in divine worship that no unlovely nor dishonourable notion of God should be formed in the minds of observers.
What would 'observers' have made of the scene Duncan Campbell describes when the Holy Spirit fell in Lewis? True, many the would-be observers were smitten by the power of God themselves - and amen to that - but at that moment, they ceased to be 'observers' of whose opinion any import should be the abiding consideration.
Don't you see that God put SI in Greg's heart [i]so that[/i] He could put the forums in Greg's heart (maybe yours also... not sure), [i]so that[/i] Christians could strengthen one another and be joined by bonds of unity in the Holy Spirit [i]so that[/i] He could fill us with His Spirit [i]so that[/i] through the operation of the gifts of the Spirit amongst us [u]His Church would [b]grow[/b][/u]?
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the [u]unity of the faith[/u], and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we [i]henceforth[/i] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [i]and[/i] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [i]even[/i] [b]Christ[/b]:
16 [b]From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love[/b]. [/color]
Many a house-church meets not in the home of the elder or leader, but in the best home for the purpose of meeting, and the elders arrive with the rest of the church members. They have been recognised by the church members - not as the [i]natural[/i] leaders - but for their spiritual calling and their gentle exercise of the authority God has added to their obedience.
This is no shame to the householder who has the gift of hospitality.
| 2008/3/25 7:15|
Order and decency must prevail in any scenario where the Body of Christ congregates - internet forums included. SermonIndex is a window where many unconverted observers look into daily, and it is here above all where it behooves us to conduct our affairs and ministry with order and decency and sobriety. The guidelines for these are found in Holy Scripture, expressed to us by God through Paul. Over gifts, there must first be the fruit of the Spirit, i.e. charity, self-control, all the attributes enumerated by Paul in Galatians 5. Gifts are absolutely obnoxious and should not be sought regardless of the motive if the life of the believer hasn't first been brought into the obedience of the Holy Spirit wherein fruit is cultivated. If "gifts" are sought to edify the Body for growth - and yet the exercising of such gifts incongruent with an established foundation of fruit, the gifts will be misused, abused, out-of-order and of absolutely no profit to the Body other than in the sowing of discord among the brethren.
Paul Frederick West
| 2008/3/25 15:01||Profile|