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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas


Is that so, Paul?

Absolutely. Up until this year I was a certified minister with the Assemblies of God, and I only recently broke away from my Pentecostal heritage due to my belief that tongues [i]are not[/i] the sole initial evidence of Spirit Baptism. In fact, I believe tongues do not have to be present at all, if the Holy Spirit sovereignly designs not to give them, and in other cases tongues may very well be the initial evidence.

But as for miracles and other outward manifestations (such as raising the dead and gifts of knowledge and healing), I believe and have seen God at work many times in the supernatural through my own ministry and the ministry of others. David seems to be leaping to emotional assumptions, but Jeanette, you have understood the intent of my post.

I would never forbid someone from seeking "oil" (the oil reserve they seek is found each morning in [i]quiet time[/i] with God and in His Word), though I would certainly deter the panning of fool's gold in a sewage run-off. I'm sorry if these are blunt words and they offend some people, but this is how strongly I am opposed to the foolishness we see masquerading as "Holy Ghost" in certain circles. Brownsville had some great moments, but not all of it was great, and I'm not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

All the same, let us move on to greater things. I could tell you of the wonders of God, great miracles of divine healing I've seen with my own two eyes, great manifestations of His power on the streets when we would open-air preach. But I have learnt to move on and not major on miracles. I don't dwell on them, and I won't discuss them here because the temptation is too great to steal the glory for myself. I will only talk about the unseen workings of Christ within my spirit - the things that really matter - the fruit, the beauty of holiness and a clean walk before God; but I will continue to warn against charismatic superficiality, and do all I can to prevent debatings on such and vain jangling from prevailing here.

Think of me as just a loving brother trying to exhort others to "say in the center of the road", and not veer too much to the left or right.

Paul Frederick West

 2008/3/13 10:02Profile


Ephesians 4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 2008/3/13 11:19

Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA


Excellent scripture Sister Katy... posted on another thread last night the scripture from
Galatians 5:13 - 15 (NKJV) 13For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 15But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

Appropriate to this thread and many others.

I can appreciate very much Brother Paul's remarks (coming from a similar background in the Church of God) regarding the direction of what was once a dynamic movement of God which started first and foremost as a hungering and thirsting for personal holiness and total surrender to God, but along the way instead of seeking the person of the Holy Spirit and the ministry of the Holy Spirit which Jesus Christ Himself said is to glorify Christ, exalt His Words, expose sin, exalt righteousness, lead into all TRUTH... the gifts and the person of the Holy Spirit is exalted above Jesus Christ and the signs and wonders that were used to demonstrate the Lord's authority to forgive sin has been emphasized almost to the exclusion of those repeated commands to take up the cross, and self-denial, and to have a servant's heart (exemplified in His washing the disciple's feet) and those clear declarations regarding not only the fruits of the Spirit, but also those fruits the the Lord talked about in the Sermon on the Mount that distinquish the true from the false prophet.

Too many thorns and thistles trying to say there are figs in here somewhere.


Clint Thornton

 2008/3/13 12:14Profile

Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas


what was once a dynamic movement of God which started first and foremost as a hungering and thirsting for personal holiness and total surrender to God, but along the way instead of seeking the person of the Holy Spirit and the ministry of the Holy Spirit which Jesus Christ Himself said is to glorify Christ, exalt His Words, expose sin, exalt righteousness, lead into all TRUTH... the gifts and the person of the Holy Spirit is exalted above Jesus Christ and the signs and wonders that were used to demonstrate the Lord's authority to forgive sin has been emphasized almost to the exclusion of those repeated commands to take up the cross, and self-denial, and to have a servant's heart

Amen. The mainline Pentecostal movement, for the most part, has become exactly this. Tongues and prophetic utterances are manifest in almost everyone of our services (I still attend an AG church) but the abiding [i]fruit[/i] to follow is scarce. There's lots of emotion and yelling and stomping and prophecy, but when all the smoke clears, you still don't see a tender humility and a love for the lost and a thirst for the righteousness of Christ in personal holiness. Observing this over the years has really left a bad taste in my mouth when I hear of "gifts" in Pentecostal circles.

People want to see the dead raised, yet they have no desire to raise themselves out of bed in the mornings to pray and seek God in the Word. Do you know the only death we should be concerned with seeing reversed and resurrected? Our lives of personal devotion at the feet of Jesus Christ. If we fail to raise ourselves up to effectively meet God in quiet time, we miss the mark for the entire day, and we end up as nothing more than zealous children with bobby-pins and painted beach towels pretending to be Supermen.

Paul Frederick West

 2008/3/13 12:30Profile

 Re: Polemic Theology: How to Deal with Those Who Differ from Us


roadsign wrote:
Who does not encounter from time to time people who are not in complete agreement?

2 Timothy 2:23-25

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Psalm 35:1
Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.

Isaiah 41:11
Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.

Matthew 12:19
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

 2008/3/13 12:38

 Re: Polemic Theology: How to Deal with Those Who Differ from Us

We are called upon by the Lord to contend earnestly for the faith (Jude 3). That does not necessarily involve being contentious; but it involves avoiding compromise, standing forth for what we believe, standing forth for the truth of God--without welching at any particular moment.

This struck me forcibly, as I have recently been very sorely tempted to compromise on Truth, or at least go over-softly, for the sake of peace. Especially because a person promoting error seemed to want to make peace, and even apologised for sharp words spoken previously.

I drafted a warm, accepting, "lets be friends" sort of reply, but the Lord wouldn't let me send it.

In the end He enabled me to send a (hopefully) gracious response, but one that still made it absolutely clear that there was to be [i]no compromise whatsoever[/i] in the area of Truth.

For one like myself, who had a real phobia of any kind of conflict or unpleasantness, this was a big victory!

Among other things, the Lord reminded me of the two good kings, Jehoshaphat and Hezekiah. Both really nice guys (if a king can be called that!), and true men of God. Yet they compromised and made leagues with their enemies, and with the enemies of their nation, and, more disastrously, with enemies of God.

Indeed, Isaiah's words to Hezekiah, after he'd received the Babylonian envoys and showed them all his treasures, seem to imply that Hezekiah's compromise with Babylon was at least in part the cause of the Babylonian captivity! And I was on the verge of opening my heart, as Hezekiah did his treasures, to an "envoy of Babylon", because I was so thrilled at the prospect of reconciliation!

There's such a fine line between contending for the faith in a right spirit and compromise, or contending wrongly.

May the Lord give us all boldness, wisdom, grace, discernment and clarity in these things!



 2008/3/13 13:02

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3305



PaulWest wrote:
The "box" you mention, the true box is a holy life in Christ Jesus, a humble, charitable life of prayer and meditation, of growing in all knowledge and wisdom and grace in God's ways. We ought to never leave this "box";

This has got to be your opinion I have never in my 40 years as a Christian heard the box explained like this. To me the Box is the "law" the law has held many Christian in bondage for thousands of years, Jesus says in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

So to me getting out of the box is worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, if your only worshiping him in truth "The Word" your still inside the box, when you learn as I have many years ago to also worship him in "Spirit" then and only then you will be out of the box.

This is were many have fallen away they go to Church or come here and post "thousands" of Scriptures and forget totally about listening to the "King" the Holy Spirit "within" this is were many fall short. The Holy Spirit will minister to each of us independently through Scripture this is why the Bible is called the "living" Word there are no Scriptures that can possibly mean one thing and only one thing and many here do not understand this, some think this is "exactly" what this Scripture means "news flash" no it don't it! means whatever the Holy Spirit is ministering through that Scripture to each of us at that time, this is why I don't hardly come here anymore because you have these know it alls that don't understand how the Holy Spirit works, and know only the truth and really don't know it that well most of what they do know are opinions.

NOT ALL WORSHIP IS ACCEPTABLE...There is vain worship - Mt 15:7-9 Based on traditions of men, while ignoring the commands of God, offered without involving our "hearts" (spirits) There is ignorant worship - Ac 17:22-23, Ignorant of the true nature of God, Ignorant of the worship He desires, There is will worship - Co 2:20-23 (KJV), Self-imposed, not God-directed, What we like, what we think is good, Just because we worship God, does not mean He is pleased with
our worship!

"Jesus said it is the "Spirit of truth" that teaches us all things."


 2008/3/13 14:22Profile


A deception with consequences

In Joshua 9, Joshua was proceeding to conquer the land promised to Israel as God had commanded him to do. He was proceeding as directed to kill all of the inhabitants of that land. In verse 3, when some of the Amorites (one of the tribes inhabiting the land God had commanded Joshua to destroy) who lived in the city of Gibeah, and called Gibeonites, heard that Joshua was coming to destroy them, the scriptures tell us they decided to fool Joshua with trickery. They put on old clothes, took moldy bread, old wineskin, worn out shoes and covered themselves with much dust. Then they rode their camels over the hill to meet Joshua and told him that they had come from a far away land, having heard of his great army and his God who was conquering all the nations before him. They said they had come to make a treaty with Israel. Please make note of this important fact: they are lying through their teeth! In verse 14, it says that Joshua and his men looked at them and were convinced that they were telling them the truth because of their appearance and the condition of their food and garments. The bible says they “didn’t even inquire of the Lord.” Instead, vs. 15 says Joshua and his leaders “made a peace covenant with them.”
Immediately after this, someone found out that they were not from far away as they had implied; instead, they were from just over the hill. Joshua and his men then realized they had been lied to. You would think Joshua and his men would have risen up and killed all of them for their lies, and for making them look very foolish. You would think they would have said, like many today would say, “We didn’t know what we were doing. They fooled us.” But vs. 18 says, “And the children of Israel smote them not because the princes of the congregation had sworn.

Now, to clarify that the Gibeonites NEVER became part of Israel, but became *servants*,to Israel not brethren. They did not inherit any land.

History will tell the end of this story.

My understanding is that the Gibeonites were always a pain in the neck to Israel, but because this covenant was made by an oath ( be careful of what and who you allow in your life. If there was originally to be an exception for the Gibeonites, the Lord would have said so from the beginning…He did not!.) ) and God honored that oath the princes of the congregation made

…….but it came back to bite them all.

2 Samuel 21:1
Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

2 Samuel 21:2
And the king called the Gibeonites, and said unto them; (now the Gibeonites were not of the children of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; and the children of Israel had sworn unto them: and Saul sought to slay them in his zeal to the children of Israel and Judah.)

2 Samuel 21:3
Wherefore David said unto the Gibeonites, What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the LORD?

2 Samuel 21:4
And the Gibeonites said unto him, We will have no silver nor gold of Saul, nor of his house; neither for us shalt thou kill any man in Israel. And he said, What ye shall say, that will I do for you.)

They asked for Saul's 7 sons in retribution!

2 Samuel 21:9
And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.


 2008/3/13 14:33

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230



the 5 wise virgins were wise due to the fullness of their lamps.
No, they were wise because they also had spare oil with then in a vessel. This was in case the night of watching and waiting for the Bridegroom proved too long for their lamps to last out.

As indeed happened. They made it to the Feast because they had not only oil, (as you say, representing the Holy Spirit), but a store for the dark days and nights of waiting that came before his return to claim his bride.

OK I say oil is atype of the Holy Spirit and you say No.

Thenyou say it is a type but not like you say it?

Maybe this will help us not to add to the parable to protect doctrine:
the oil is a type of the Holy Spirit Period.

The wise were wise becaause they had oil.

How do we know this?
well, read the parable.....The foolish were foolish because they had NO oil period.

None of the parables are complex they are super simple.

There is no possible way to add polluted oil into the parable.

That would qualify as oxymoronic.(polluted Holy Spirit)

This is extremely religious turf,placing doing the works of Jesus in the light of cheap tricks and seeking oil as polluted oil.

Look at scripture ! History repeats itself .....they accused Jesus of having polluted oil."he casts out Satan by the power of satan"

"he healed the sick on the sabbath! Everyone knows he cant be of God. No real man of God would break Gods law like that"

So we have it be outside the box like Jesus incurs the ire of the religious establishment.


 2008/3/13 14:49Profile

 Re: Polemic Theology: How to Deal with Those Who Differ from Us

Hi Paul,

(I began writing this some hours ago, and have been distracted, during which time the conversation has moved on; however I think I shall complete and post what I had prepared, by way of expanding our communication generally.)

I think we were saying the same thing, and I'd like to share with you how I come to that conclusion, because perhaps it will help us get to know each other a bit more, and only for that reason. Ahead of this short explanation though, let me explain something you would never guess unless I share it unsolicited. When I was in that church I refer to as cultish, I was under constant attack by the leader for my use of English in terms such as 'swallowed a dictionary again', and, (in some ways this next point is more important), when I attributed [u]to the Lord[/u] what He was doing for me, I was told it couldn't have been God, or, everyone (else) knows that (aspect of truth already, except you (me), of course), and, various terms of reference were banned (for me personally), even if I heard others using them (including the accuser) [i]all the time[/i]. This had the desired effect on me, namely to [i]not[/i] give God the glory, and to [i]not[/i] mention Jesus Christ if it could be avoided.

Now..... baring oneself to the world on a Christian website (SI), and not knowing who is going to fall like a ton of bricks from on cyberhigh on some phrase one uses accidentally triggering an adverse spiritual reaction from others, I have developed a very passive way of expressing my thoughts, including the use of biblical metaphor without very much explanation (in this case 'Ark'). People will either get it or they won't. I could not number the excellent and spiritual sermons I heard in 3D, while having no personal comprehension of what was [i]really[/i] being said. So, it doesn't bother me that not everyone understands everything I say, and, I enjoy being challenged by what I hear from others, which [i]I[/i] don't understand.

But, I do depend on the Spirit to connect me to people. This is the bond of unity which we are to endeavour to maintain. As long as that is being nurtured, the matter of teasing out what was in a person's heart when they chose the words they used to try to convey it, is just one of the extenuations of using a keyboard. I remind myself that a short post from anone who doesn't touch-type, may have taken quite a long time to write, and its content has been shrunk to the key point they wish to contribute for others to consider.

Getting back to faith, and Ark, I'm sure I don't need to tell you the Ark is a type of Christ, and it took faith to get in; whichever way you look at the underlying truth. The comparason of boxes I realised afterwards, might better have been put in the term MikeB is fond of - the 'fallen cranium' - to represent those who are not (yet) thinking with the mind of Christ, even though they may make a religious presentation to the world.

I'm sure that in the things I've said here so far, we are barely talking about 'polemic theology'; but, let's acknowledge the process on which we all have embarked. Hearing of the dear brother from a pentecostal church childhood, who eventually settled in the Russian Orthodox church (in the UK) because it gave opportunity for the contemplative aspect of our faith, and, of your gradual migration to a more biblical creed, and, knowing my own shocking transition from forms of worship which required mostly mute participation, to ones in which I was ready to share my bread every week, it's clear [i]change[/i] is a necessary manifestation of [i]growth[/i], if we are to become the people [u]God[/u] wants us to be.

 2008/3/13 15:05

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