Poster | Thread | HeartSong Member

Joined: 2006/9/13 Posts: 3179
| Re: | | Hi Robert, While God may have used entertainment to recapture your heart, there is an endless number of souls that are being held in bondage by its captivating and hypnotic capabilities many, if not all of them, under the false illusion that there is no harm in it. There is an elderly lady that I know, that less than a year ago almost died twice but in both cases Jesus stepped in and she was supernaturally healed. As she lay in piles of tubes, white as a sheet, scripture verse after scripture verse flowed from her lips. She poured forth with praises to her Lord to all that came near. . . . Sadly, she now quotes Dr. Phil and the praises have stopped. |
| 2008/2/27 22:46 | Profile | daniel- Member

Joined: 2005/8/25 Posts: 130 Germany
| Re: THE MENACE OF THE RELIGIOUS MOVIE by A.W. Tozer | | Sigh, my heart is sinking, why are we so full of religious extremes?
When looking at the religious scene one must obviously conclude that there is so much going on only to provide entertainment in the church and to meet the little carnal needs of the people. Plus, there is no piercing message.
But why then, do we again have to throw out the baby with the bathwater?
I know powerful dramas that wonderfully illustrate strong truths in a very convicting way. Is that entertainment?
Is it wrong to use parables ?
We have to be careful and discerning before we put a general condemnation upon a thing that God very well can and will use.
You would have to condemn for example: the early Salvation Army, lead by William Booth with their loud music on the street to gain attention, Nicky Cruz for using a Gangster HipHop Band to reach subcultures and yes, TimesQuareChurch! They use dramas and modern music in their youth ministry. Do you know Steiger? They have an evangelistic band called "No longer music". It is awful music, hehe, but they have gained entry into concert halls of Terrorist Organisations in Spain (I believe) and preached the gospel. They are reaching places and people you would never reach. They are playing in heavy metal concert halls with satanic people and are on a direct confrontational course with the powers of darkness through their ministry. And the message has nothing to do with entertainment. Is that wrong? I do not believe they enjoy being spit in their faces by people who hate God while they are on stage.
Of course the most important thing, the heart of the issue, is to preach the word of God, anointed and empowered by the Holy Spirit. Outward means can never be the foundation.
But please, let us be discerning. Daniel _________________ Daniel Sahm
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| 2008/2/28 7:43 | Profile | RobertW Member

Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Quote:
As she lay in piles of tubes, white as a sheet, scripture verse after scripture verse flowed from her lips. She poured forth with praises to her Lord to all that came near. . . . Sadly, she now quotes Dr. Phil and the praises have stopped.
I understand. But the same can be said of the Internet. The internet is far and away the most [i]potentially[/i] dangerous means in the history of the Church and the most dangerous place 'to be' or 'to partake of 'spiritually in the history of humanity. It is a spiritual minefield to be navigated very carefully as one wrong step could spell disaster like no other. But here we all are. ;-)
Wilkerson once told Ravenhill that the TV was of the devil, etc. Ravenhill responded to the effect, "I know where the knobs are" (controls in the modern sense).
In the same sense preaching is deceiving multitudes into bondage and so is the printed page.
The solution for [i]abuse[/i] is not 'non-use' it is [i]right[/i] use. I shuttered to think that my father saw his first light upon his soul watching John Hagee and listening to Hank Hanagraff. Do I advocate these men? Certainly not. Why? they are both way too dogmatic and intolerant of other folks views. But who am I to withstand God as He has saw fit to use these men in these circumstances?
My point is and was that extremism is killing us. It is driving people away from forums like these as they weary themselves at such extreme views that are more like the pharisees than Jesus. I mean, how far would we travel to make a proselite that was just exactly like we are? And how long will it be before we mature and realize that our youthful zeal gave rise to positions on things that we ours and not God's? _________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2008/2/28 8:11 | Profile | PaulWest Member

Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Hi Robert,
Brother, I understand your concerns here, and I share in them. Can you isolate some quotes from the Tozer article you specifically [i]disagree[/i] with (that is, the things you believe need to have the "holy fire whipped out of"), and from there we can take them to task. I somewhat agree with your perspective, yet at the same time I very much agree with Tozer's assesment. I wonder: can both these share a mutual validity? _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2008/2/28 8:58 | Profile | RobertW Member

Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Hi Paul and everyone,
The 'holy fire' comments are based more on some of the things coming out in print form that are so radical, I almost need a tylenol after each page to get my temperature back down. ;-)
As far as Tozer goes, understand that I admire the man greatly. He is buried near Canton you know, oddly enough just a couple miles from where I stayed in my hotel. Too bad I found that out after the conference. Anyway, I listen to more Tozer than probably any (edit. of the other speakers) here on SI. So I have a great admiration. But like many people that touch our lives, there are areas of strong disagreement.
In the article there is an undertone that suggests, as certain writings of our day, that God does not move on hearts when men employ means that:
1) may not be expressly stated in scripture 2) may have a parallel in pagan society 3) may draw attention to an individual 4) may cause some sort of 'emotional' response 5) etc. etc.
It is odd that today the Church is constantly being challenged to be 'relevant' to sociaty. I wonder if anyone ever stated that the bible was pagan because moveable type was not in scripture and the hard efforts and sweat and toil of writing the manuscripts by hand were over? In fact they have. Some have complained that the proliferation of the scriptures has de-valued them in the eyes of men. :-? Finney talked about the importance of bringing Christ before the eyes and minds of the people. When one means looses it's effectiveness we have to move on in order to keep a fresh presentation of Christ, uncompromised before the eyes of men. If we do not- we lose a generation.
The terribly sad thing is that Satan dupes believers, even the most spiritual of believers, into grasping their old traditions and pet-peeves to the place where they can write for days justifying them. They feel that if "you spent as much time alone with God as I have- you would know He would never approve of such." this is arrogance in my ears. My response is, and I speak as a fool, when you have spent as much time as I have looking into the faces of the lost and dying that need God you would see His face in theirs. When you have watched the heart monitor flat line you will feel the urgency to use what ever means God will use to save the last that He died to purchase with His own blood. You would be more inclined to pray and get about the work of visiting the lost than criticize every means God will emply either pragmatic or foolish.
Jesus spoke on hell? Yes? Do a study of why so many were cast into hell. It was all too often for what they did NOT do. A lot of people are doing things that are being criticized. They are trying to obey God. Their hearts break for lost souls. I would rather be in that camp any day than in a thousand trances trying to find God in a closet some place. In as much as you have done it unto the least of these my brethren- you have done it unto me. THAT, my friends, is fellowship with Christ.
God Bless,
Robert
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2008/2/28 9:32 | Profile | crsschk Member

Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 9192 Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Balance | | Quote:
My point is and was that extremism is killing us.
You are right brother.
For what it's worth, if you do a search here on this title from Tozer, you will find a couple of previous posts. One of them was presented around the time The Passion was coming out and drew out many ... expressions if I could put it somewhat understated.
Quote:
The solution for [i]abuse[/i] is not 'non-use' it is [i]right[/i] use.
Yes. Think it is far easier to lump matters categorically than to deal with the inherent tensions of recognizing the extremes and ... just plain honest dealing with them.
Something else to take into consideration is the times. The time, setting, circumstances that might have been surrounding events at the moment Tozer wrote his article. Much of it we are not completely privy to. Some of it would be fairly extracted I would suppose by comparison to other works and those things he saw coming down the pike so to speak.
I wonder if we do not sometimes take these things and try to make them stand on all fours.
_________________ Mike Balog
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| 2008/2/28 9:44 | Profile | PaulWest Member

Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Quote:
I wonder if we do not sometimes take these things and try to make them stand on all fours.
No doubt, brother. You know, when we speak of "extremism" we really need to understand it's a relative term, influenced by a myriad of factors - the most prominent being our own experiences. The definition of "extremism" can be influenced by our denominational leanings, our understanding of scripture, or our affinity for a certain style of preaching. Someone overindulging in Finney, for example, may (or may not) feel the same temperature of extreme as one who has a propensity for Spurgeon, and indeed their interpretations of Holy Scripture may be "extremely" at odds. How is this reconciled?
Easily, to me. Let each one be fully persuaded in his own mind, and not feel the need to press his or her own ideals of "extremism" (in relative terms, again) unduly upon the consciences of others, as the Holy Ghost is more than able to do this Himself in God's timing. In contrast to what Robert wrote earlier, sometimes I [i]do[/i] believe the factor of maturity and hearing from God is a valid reason for seeing different levels of extremity in personal conviction - and, yet, in other times it may not. It would certainly be arrogant to use this as a defense in a public forum - and for this I agree with him!
I do know that God doesn't change, and in times past - and even to this day - He is able to accomplish more effectively and soundly without the artistic underworkings of men and the golden inlays of casings we feel so impelled to enshroud the gospel. Which in no means states that He can't [i]use[/i] our embellishements - for He does - and at times with great effect. But some of us who are more purist in conviction and leaning tend to frown upon the brazen casings and ivory statues fashioned by the hands of man [i]overlaying[/i] the gospel in the attempts to make it, perhaps, more palpable to a spurned populace. In the construction of the Tabernacle of Meetings, if you recall, God wanted the dirty badger skins on the [i]outside[/i] and the intricate weaving and beautiful tapestries on the inside - and this tells me much about the gospel and its presentation, as corroborated in the New Testament by the writings and testimonies of Paul, who certainly hung the badger skins on the outside of all he did, both aesthetically, philosophically and oratorically.
Brother Paul _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2008/2/28 10:33 | Profile | RobertW Member

Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | I was thinking this morning about how Jesus would speak in parables to the people. These were fictional stories with fictional characters (usually starring 'a certain man' ;-) ) designed to reveal a spiritual truth.
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2008/2/28 10:51 | Profile | tjservant Member

Joined: 2006/8/25 Posts: 1658 Indiana USA
| Re: | | Not a reply to anyone in particular. Just rambling
Paris Reidhead preached a sermon entitled, Gods Work to be Done Gods Way in which he points out that just because something seems to be working does not mean we are to employ that method. He uses the story of Uzza and the ox cart. It was making progress on wheels, but when the people of God started to use the ox cart method it stumbled, resulting in the death of Uzza, who, with good intentions, was simply trying to stabilize it.
Gods way was to carry it on poles. They had tried to use the method the world was using, and though it had made some progress, a high price was to be paid for not following instructions. Uzza should have known the Scriptures and had nothing to do with such an unbiblical way of moving the ark.
Having said that, I once watched a Passion play in Spearfish, South Dakota. It was freezing cold. I was unsaved and not very interested in attending. That was fifteen years ago and I will never forget that night
it was as if those people were engaged in worship. It was like God was using their passion for Him
to show His Passion for me. It would be some years before I was saved, but a seed had been sown.
I have also witnessed some very sad and disturbing dramas that still vex my spirit.
I certainly do not have all the answers, but I think there is something to be said for using Biblical methods
and avoiding those that are not.
To movie, or not to movie? Glad I am not the judge.
Just rambling.
_________________ TJ
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| 2008/2/28 11:00 | Profile | PaulWest Member

Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Quote:
I was thinking this morning about how Jesus would speak in parables to the people. These were fictional stories with fictional characters (usually starring 'a certain man' ) designed to reveal a spiritual truth.
Brother, and we do this also, for didactic purposes, and Puritan literature and Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress" are replete with such allegorical truths.
But are these one and the same? Allegory and acting? The hypothetical and the hypocritical? God uses both - and hence our dilemma. I would rather not split hairs over this, but just live and preach the gospel without being a stumbling block to others. _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2008/2/28 11:05 | Profile |
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