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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do these scripture describe satan?

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warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

I am curious as how you made that parallel? Please let me know what you drew from to make that conclusion.

 2008/2/26 19:11Profile
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

I was speaking about the nebachunezzar and king of babylon parallel. Sorry for my unclarity.

 2008/2/26 19:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:

[b]mamaluk wrote:

The Lord in Scripture said for us to have a sound mind, (not necessary an open mind), and indeed the soundness of our minds can only come from diligence in searching Scriptures comparing Scriptures to Scriptures.

I also think that overall,most Christians really know all too little about satan and of all his calculating evil ways,in fact,most Christians I met don't seem to take satan seriously at all. Study on, brother.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.[/b]



A huge AMEN on this one mamaluk.


Satan is more involved with the BIG threats - but he has 1/3 of Heaven's former population of angels who are now 'demons' working with him - on and around us.

He either allows Christians to go fanatical as "demon-busters" or [u]he puts them to sleep[/u] to where they think that they are Always dealing with "only flesh and blood". :-(


We NEED Discernment in these days more than ever & anything - because Demons love to be wherever GOD is about to, or is, or will be moving on a people.

They haven't time to mess with carnal lazy self-consumed-already christians or ministries - but they'll aim for any 'Threats' to satan's filthy GOD hating kingdom - to bring in counterfeits, phenomena, heresies, whatever dissensions/divisions/bad feelings over non-essentials that they can.


Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints


We must not be "ignorant of his devices".


Thank you Brother.

 2008/2/26 23:04
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Do these scripture describe satan?

Hi warrior,

Appreciate your manner of going about this. Have you gone through some of the commentaries on these? Matthew Henry, Albert Barnes, Clarke, Gill, others?

It would be probably a bit much to do so here but I think there is something in the prose for lack of maybe the accurate word here to express more than one thing happening at a time. It may be part Hebraism or I may also be confusing this as well ...

Am thinking of similar instances such as those that describe prophetic, future events while addressing that which is current simultaneously;

[u]Psalm 22[/u]

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Just as an example. Isaiah as well readily jumps to mind when it comes to speaking of those things distinctive to the Lord Jesus while also addressing what was in the moment. There is this almost going back and forth it seems and maybe that is due to our benefit of being on the finished end of matters, after the fact.

Am struggling to form my thoughts here, but it seems to be something with sentence structure and verse\prose, language that lends to all this.

Working at a reduced ... capacity\density here with a slight head cold, so not sure how helpful this all is.

Actually, even the commentary on Psalm 22 (and others similar) might be helpful in reconcilling those things you are concerned with also in Isaiah and Ezekiel.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/2/27 0:00Profile
Lowly
Member



Joined: 2007/10/13
Posts: 41


 Re:

WarriorofGod,
Maybe you could look at it like the Messianic Psalms. David is writing about himself and then suddenly he speaks prophetically about the Messiah, and then back to his situation. Psalm 69

There is definitely a dualism occurring. As satan exalted himself and wanted to be worshipped as god, and rebelled, so has this king, which we see an example with Nebuchadnezzer, exalted himself to be worshipped as a god. Just like in the Psalms it is specifically speaking of this king, but then it seems to be speaking a prophetic revelation. It is interesting that the city also is mentioned, (the Kingdom), and the sanctuaries, (religious) have polluted themselves with their merchandising.

Satan from the beginning has tempted man to desire to be like god. Caesar raised himself up and eventually they declared themselves to be worshipped as a god.

The beast (the kingdom, the Antichrist (the King), and the False Prophet ( religious system) is the same pattern. Satan is behind it all influencing and sowing, he is in the midst. It is just like his rebellion in heaven. Men would rather worship the creature than the Creator. Men exalting themselves, taking for themselves the glory. Babylon was judged and cast down. Rome judged and cast down. This of course is going to happen again.

Just some thoughts.

In His amazing love,
Lowly
-------------------------------
Learn of Me for I am meek and lowly of heart...........

 2008/2/27 0:42Profile
Lowly
Member



Joined: 2007/10/13
Posts: 41


 Re:

Dear Mike,
I was posting mine and when I hit submit I saw yours. :-)
You did a much better job explaining it!

Lowly

 2008/2/27 0:46Profile
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

To lowly and chrsschek,

I definitely have considered the dualism theory. Thanks for the examples in scripture chrsscheck. There seems to be three theories concerning theses Scriptures.

One theory says that this scripture is talking about satan, another theory says this scripture speaks about only the king of babylon which is prophetic of the coming antichrist, and the last theory considers both.

I am being more and more persuaded by the second only because of the origin of the word lucifer. It was a latin word not a hebrew word. And somehow we have associated lucifer with satan. The antichrist is a bit more fitting only because there dozens of scripture that speak about this wicked ruler in the Old testament. And they outweigh the scriptures that define satan.

I do have to say this though. If the antichrist is the embodiment of evil, then i have no problem dealing with the fact that this scripture may be speaking about attributes of Satan. I just, for some reason or another, can no longer say that this was the authors primary intent. I will check out he commentaries you gentlemen recommended to me and will get back to you. God bless and thank you for all your help.

 2008/2/27 1:20Profile









 Re:

Brother, because of the mention of anti-Christ/King of Babylon and Lucifer, etc. - may I just give a word of caution with this subject - there are such people, as you may well know, called Luciferians. Those who say that the "christ's" real name is Lucifer - just for one. In a similar fashion saying that Jesus was the 'usurper' and that Lucifer was the real intended god/savior. They believe this so strongly that they've been trying to bring this about since Rome, (actually since before creation) but now by "blood-lines" (dna) and "blood-types" and the blood-line people have always been in and are merging even more with the 'blood-type' people. Some suddenly becoming Catholic. Or "Christian" New Agers. This is deep stuff - but that's the nutshell.

Both of those two 'blood' groups - also use the name of "Jesus","Christ" and "Lord".

The point I'm trying to make is, that Jesus warned us of this in His Sermons about "those days" - the last days. Many will say, I am Christ. That can be taken both ways.

That is just partially why I felt just a simple word of caution for discernment be thrown in and not going to far beyond traditional teachings. Discernment more than anything is to be coveted. And when looking into anti-Christ - the son of perdition - who has satan enter him - just as Judas did, who was also called the son of perdition.

Just googling hêylêl is a bad trip - so to speak.
Suggesting those commentators was alright, but this is a very deep topic. Will be more so in the days ahead. When Jesus said, "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

That word, "count" .... psēphizō

G5585 ψηφίζω Thayer Definition:
1) to count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon
2) to give one’s vote by casting a pebble into the urn
3) to decide by voting
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5586



MikeB - I'm sure you'll understand this ...

From e-sword alone from R. A. Torrey, one of my favorites, but look at this closely in your e-sword.

The 'cross-references' from his Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge.

Isa 14:12 -
How art thou fallen: Isa_13:10, Isa_34:4; Eze_28:13-17; Luk_10:18; 2Pe_2:4; Rev_12:7-10

Lucifer: or, day-star, 2Pe_1:19; Rev_2:28, Rev_22:16

weaken: Isa_14:4-6; Jer_50:23, Jer_51:20-24
_________________________________________________

Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Jesus always would warn, but then comfort -

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, [b]The Lord knoweth them that are his.[/b]
And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


Great Grace & Great Peace.

 2008/2/27 3:24









 Re: Do these scripture describe satan?

Quote:

warriorofgod wrote:
I am greatly distressed. I need some help from you all. I do not see any direct reference to satan found in Isaiah 14 nor in Ezekiel 28. I find that if I read it without the presupposition that it is supposedly satan, it makes no connection to him. Help me please.
I need resources too. I know about the mention of cherub, but this is not any different when you call Pharaoh the great dragon in Ezekiel 29:3. I realize the the "being in eden" portion but that doesn't prove anything either since eden was symbolic of wealth and pleasure. I need a reason to be believe that this was talking about satan because for a long time i was lead to believe that it did. Please help. :-?

Hi there

I've come late to this thread, so thought it was best to begin commenting at the beginning, with your original question.

The Bible often has this kind of "dualism". Jesus described Judas Iscariot as "a devil", even before Satan entered him to do the work of betrayal.

In the case of the two Old Testament passages you mention, they do speak in the first instance of a man, the king of Babylon and the Prince of Tyre.

The Lord reveals the nature of a man, a human king, in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. But as you read on it begins to be plain that it is also describing characteristics that are beyond that of a man, or that they speak of a man [i][b]as representing[/b][/i] the Enemy.
[**Edit, add] Or the Antichrist, in whom Satan is to dwell, who is again a man, but representing Satan.**

Often too, (I think it was Eddie who said it - ***[Edit] no, Lowly and Mike)***, there are hidden references to the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament. He mentioned Psalm 22. Isaiah 53 is another one, of course, and very many not so obvious. Seek them out, don't get bogged down with studying the nature of Satan as represented by a man, or worry too much about the interpretation of these passages. Look for the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament instead, ask the Lord to reveal Himself as you read. You will be amazed!

I remember being absolutely [i]thrilled[/i] the first time, as a new Christian, I came across a hidden reference to Jesus, [i]all by myself![/i] :-D in Proverbs 8.

[color=000000]22 “The LORD begot me,[/color] [the original word "begot" means a lot of things, aquired, possessed, gained etc, and can't easily be translated into English] [color=000000] the first-born of his ways,
the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;
23 From of old I was poured forth,
at the first, before the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no fountains or springs of water;
25 Before the mountains were settled into place,
before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet the earth and the fields were not made,
nor the first clods of the world.
27 “When he established the heavens I was there,
when he marked out the vault over the face of the deep;
28 When he made firm the skies above,
when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth;
29 When he set for the sea its limit,
so that the waters should not transgress his command;
30 Then was I beside him as his craftsman,[/color] [Or, as a little child]
[color=000000] and I was his delight day by day,
Playing before him all the while,
31 playing on the surface of his earth;
and I found delight in the sons of men.
32 “So now, O children, listen to me;
33 instruction and wisdom do not reject!
Happy the man who obeys me,
and happy those who keep my ways,
34 Happy the man watching daily at my gates,
waiting at my doorposts;
35 For he who finds me finds life,
and wins favor from the LORD;
36 But he who misses me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”[/color]

[The New American Bible - compare the KJV or other translations]

The original Hebrew word for "wisdom" is feminine, so in this long passage in Proverbs it is often spoken as "she", but doesn't the above quote from it describe Someone far greater than an abstract virtue?

Hope that also helps, there have been some good answers already.

In Him

Jeannette

 2008/2/27 5:40









 Re: "Lucifer"

The word "Lucifer" is a translation of teh Hebrew word, meaning, as has been said, Light-bearer or shining one.

This connects with (maybe someone else said this already and i missed it?) 2Corinthians 11. Paul may indeed have the OT passage in mind when he wrote this. He's speaking of those who were troubling the Church and attacking him as not being a "proper" apostle.

[My emphasis] [color=990000]13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for [i][b]Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light[/b][/i].
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.[/color]
[KJV]

You will see the link!

Blessings

Jeannette

 2008/2/27 5:54





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