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SimpleLiving
Member



Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
Finney's doctrinal beliefs have nothing to do with this thread. I was wondering about his methods.



Most people’s methods come from their doctrinal beliefs. It’s hard to talk about why someone does something unless you know what beliefs caused the action in question.

Sorry if I added to your no-debate-stress-factor, that was not my intention. I believe an understanding of Finney’s doctrine explains why he used the methods he did and I thought that’s what you were after. I apologize.


Grace and peace brother



Brother TJ, you have never been a stress to me, but always a blessing!

No, you didn't add any stress. I wholeheartedly apologize if I came across as being stressed, or even accusatory, in my post. I didn't intend that at all. (And, if I had been, that would be something for me to address with the Father because of an issue [i]I[/i] had, rather than because of anyone else.)

Reading your post, I can see [i]how[/i] doctrine [i]can[/i] play into the issue of how a teacher/preacher delivers their sermon. It's just that when someone is accused of coming into town like a circus show and delivering their sermon like a carnival barker, what doctrine fits in with that? That's why, in this case, I saw it more as a presentation/entertainment question than a doctrinal one.

As I've said in other posts, I do believe debate has its purpose and place. It can be very beneficial (when conducted maturely) but [i]in moderation[/i], along with everything else. If someone comes to a forum and is seen to debate everything, how does that affect their witness?

I tend to post in generalizations when it comes to people. I never intend to be sly or infer that I'm speaking about someone in particular. If I have ever given any other impression, to anyone, then I am deeply grieved by this and I beg for your forgiveness. It can be difficult to determine, at times, a person's true attitude or reflections from their posts because we have very little to go by in the way of "tone" or inflection. Both can be misread. Believe me when I say that if I have a problem with someone, I have no qualms about discussing it with that person; privately, not publicly.

And, so I'm not guilty of taking my own thread down a bunny trail, and since I've had my own purpose for this thread satisfied, feel free to let the conversation, if it should continue, go in whichever direction it does. It's natural for a topic to veer into other points and should be okay when the original post is covered.


_________________
Keith

 2008/2/18 20:41Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

You, my brother, are a blessing as well!

I would like to respond to this one point. Who knows…it may even shed some light!

Quote:
It's just that when someone is accused of coming into town like a circus show and delivering their sermon like a carnival barker, what doctrine fits in with that? That's why, in this case, I saw it more as a presentation/entertainment question than a doctrinal one.



Some of his critics claim that he did not believe in the sufficiency of scripture, or should I say sovereignty of God, and that he believed man was partially responsible for drawing men to Christ. Thus he relied on theatrics to compel men to come to Christ.

This is why I introduce the theological aspect.


Grace and peace


_________________
TJ

 2008/2/18 20:55Profile
SimpleLiving
Member



Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
You, my brother, are a blessing as well!

I would like to respond to this one point. Who knows…it may even shed some light!

Quote:
It's just that when someone is accused of coming into town like a circus show and delivering their sermon like a carnival barker, what doctrine fits in with that? That's why, in this case, I saw it more as a presentation/entertainment question than a doctrinal one.



Some of his critics claim that he did not believe in the sufficiency of scripture, or should I say sovereignty of God, and that he believed man was partially responsible for drawing men to Christ. Thus he relied on theatrics to compel men to come to Christ.

This is why I introduce the theological aspect.


Grace and peace



Thank you for showing me such grace with your explanation, brother. I see your point very clearly now. I apologize to everyone for making a mountain out of a molehill.

Although the brothers who created this series of video clips about entertainment in the pulpit have a point, it now appears, to me, that there is a doctrinal agenda attached to it as well. I think it would have been sufficient to reference how this style of preaching isn't just in today's churches, but that it's happened in the past. To focus as much time on they did on those who aren't even alive anymore can only be a doctrinal issue they have with them. What other benefit could it have?

I watched all five clips in full. Most of the focus was on those who have long-since died. They barely mention the entertainment-driven, seeker-sensitive churches of today, which should have been the focus because they are the reality of [i]right now.[/i] How does pointing out the theatrics of a couple of long dead saints matter, and resolve, what's going on with an incredibly large number of churches today?

As someone once said, and I can't remember who, "There are only two days before me. Today and Judgment Day."



_________________
Keith

 2008/2/18 21:20Profile









 Re:

I don't quite think it's doctrinal in all cases.

My first Church was an Af/Am Methodist Church in the South. Very expressive but not out of line at all. But a sister from that Church and I, whom I lived with, with her Mom and Dad, used to go Church hopping together to all the special meetings at other Churches and some were very over the top demonstratively speaking.

Then when I moved from Virginia - the next U.S. base I was stationed at, I met another girl in my barracks and she took me to the AoG.
I stayed AoG for some years. Visited many. All Pastors had a different style. Some more expressive than others.

Then, much later, when we couldn't find an AoG in our area where I had moved again - we started trying the CoG - the one that had split with the AoG.
Now that's where we found the most cookie-cutter Pastors. They seemed all to scream and perform. One minute at the pulpit and in a blink of an eye - flying down the aisle, etc..

BUT - I also happen to know, that not ALL CoG pastors are like that.

And not all Presbyterian & Baptist Pastors "are not filled with the Holy Spirit" neither.

So - maybe it's more, just what the person feels or just part of their character or what they'd been taught, generationally and what "the people's" preferences are.

Some folks used to say David Wilkerson "yelled", HA - even his wife asked him to try to tone it down some. He mentioned that in one of his sermons and all laughed, but I never thought he was 'yelling'.

To each their own. Viva la differance. Whatever?

Other nations have other means of expression too.

 2008/2/18 21:27









 Re:

Quote:
Ok I will start a new one your right, what's wrong with me, I must have thought I would have been treated like the Prodigal Son by responding with my line of thinking, but the spirit within me told me better, guess it was more like Joseph.



Bill... my friend and my brother... I have no idea what this means. :-?

Krispy

 2008/2/19 8:15
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

SimpleLiving,

Quote:
Most of the focus was on those who have long-since died. They barely mention the entertainment-driven,



SL, perhaps you forgot the introduction at the beginning of each video? The clips of entertainment that is now presented in churches? The compilers, as I understand the videos, is that old-time revivalists resorted to theatrics to gain attention, audience, that it is nothing new. Although having said that I surmised these guys thought it was awful. And I agree. What goes on in churches today is a far cry from yesteryear.

I did have one question about these compilers: if they are Calvinists, from formal churches would not a smile or a soft laugh in a church service scandalize those people? Just wondering...

A few years ago we attended a couple weddings at some liberal Mennonite churches. At the one the preacher's subject had to do with intimacy in marriage. I was so embarrassed it was not funny. It was a subject he should have discussed with them in private. I hated it that we had children in that audience. Then later at the other wedding, the sermon the preacher presented was more like a stand-up comedy. Oh, it was clean and it was fun. But the entire service spent in comedy? Ya'll know I love my fun and humor, but there is a time for restraint... Don't know what I will do if it happens again...Hey, I just might be brave enough to just up and walk out....might reach maturity some day...

Seems to me as though the 'church' today is in worse shape spiritually then what it was back during the time of Reformation, the 1500's. Any comment on this? How close to right or far from right am I?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/2/19 16:27Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Krispy,

I cannot imagine [i][b]any[/b][/i] godly person resorting to this type of thing. It is sickening. No, it is obscene, vulgar. So bad it totally repulses me. Now ex-rated programs in the church?

I do have another question: you read about those people who review movies and then rate them. How can a clean mind look at filth that much and not be tainted by it? Psa 101:3 "I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me" says David. Does this not apply to moderns? So, how should one make application?

It is encouraging to read of the outrage that others experience concerning this deadly thing. You all bless me!

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/2/19 16:42Profile
SimpleLiving
Member



Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

Quote:
SL, perhaps you forgot the introduction at the beginning of each video? The clips of entertainment that is now presented in churches? The compilers, as I understand the videos, is that old-time revivalists resorted to theatrics to gain attention, audience, that it is nothing new. Although having said that I surmised these guys thought it was awful. And I agree. What goes on in churches today is a far cry from yesteryear.



Hi sister,

I do remember the modern church entertainment openers for each clip. But those were all the focus the modern church received in those Clips. The rest of the 8.5 - 9 minutes was spent exposing and talking about the long since dead saints. It seemed to me that they were focused on discrediting and playing the "blame game" instead of focusing on finding an answer to the problem.


_________________
Keith

 2008/2/19 16:53Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Bill... my friend and my brother... I have no idea what this means. :-?

Krispy




Hey that was the idea, so you did get what it means, Jimmy Johnson has a deciphering handbook you can get from his website.:-?


_________________
Bill

 2008/2/19 17:01Profile





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