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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Attempt to explain view regarding sin

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broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Attempt to explain view regarding sin

1 Peter 4:8 (KJV) 8And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. (for the KJV only folk)

1 Peter 4:8 (NKJV) 8And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”(for the rest of us).

Proverbs 10:12 (KJV) 12Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love covers a multitude of sins. Love and trust prevents a multitude of mistakes. Love and trust removes rebellion, it makes it a non issue. Why would you want to rebel against someone you trust unequivocally? Why would you or how would you consider hurting or rebelling against someone whom you love with all your heart? Where does rebellion and mistrust fit into the heart of one who knows beyond all shadow of a doubt that they are loved, truly and completely and perfectly loved?

On a purely human level one can love and trust to the extent that there is no rebellion in the heart. I have seen it and experienced it. I remember so very well a scene when someone was making some critical remarks against me and my youngest daughter who was 4 years old at the time, wadded up her little fists into a tight knot and said, loudly enough to be heard but not loud enough to get her into trouble, “leave my Daddy, alone!” Thank God she has never lost that love and defense of her Daddy, even though she has a child of her own. She is the youngest of four (two boys, two girls). Unfortunately that was not always the attitude of the older siblings. And it is certainly not that I love them less, it is just that they trusted me less during those growing up years and/or thought their knowledge was equal to or superior to mine on quite a few issues. On the other hand, I can count on one hand the times that I had to discipline my youngest daughter. She was sure that I loved her, she trusted me, and she wanted to please me and the slightest little rebuke was sufficient correction. Did she do things perfectly? No. Did she spill and break and tear and do things trying to help, that cost far more than if I had not been “helped”? Yes. But the attitude, the will, the desire to please, the desire to reciprocate love, was constantly present, and constantly apparent. And thank God it has remained till this day, and she has married a wonderful Christian husband who has become a son to me, and the two of them have been a constant inspiration for me to “live up to” the love and respect that they have shown me.

I could spend plenty of time there extending this very real and precious illustration that has been a lifetime experience through difficulties too many to mention… but instead I will simply leave the illustration as that, an illustration.

There was recently a couple of threads to which I responded regarding sin and perfection, a subject that so often gets very deep and controversial and it is certainly not my aim to be controversial. It is merely the aim to not be misunderstood on so vital an issue (I suppose it is better said in the positive: “to be understood”). We may talk about “old man” versus “new man”, sin nature, flesh, and all the rest… the tendencies of the flesh, fighting the flesh and so forth and there is no doubt far too much that I do not understand regarding all those things. We can contend over whether Paul was living in the 7th or 8th chapter of Romans and since he is no longer around to clarify his points, our points can get pointless. We can debate whether or not “chief of sinners” described Paul’s condition when he said, ‘I have fought a good fight, finished the course and I have kept the faith…. And his “ready to be offered” (presumably as a sacrifice), was while still sinning…

We can debate “sinless perfection” versus “sinning every day” and split hairs over what is “sin” and become “sinful” in our point and counterpoint of arguments leaving offence on both sides or rather all sides of the argument. And it does “seem”, and notice I used the word “seem” that so many times our discussions come down to defending sin or defending “self” for sinning. The blanket that gets thrown out to cover it all is just how depraved and dark our hearts are and Jeremiah’s true statement about them, the holiness of God and how “unholy” we are in comparison, which is abundantly true, and in fact that was precisely the argument that Job’s detractors used against him in the midst of that attack of the devil to try to dislodge this man from his trust in God, and hence, his “blamelessness” before God.

But brothers and sisters, I believe the major point of contention is in our definitions of sin and there are certainly more definitions of sin than the

חָטָא
chata (306c); a prim. root; to miss, go wrong, sin:—bear the blame (2), bewildered (1), bore the loss (1), bring sin (1), cleanse (5), cleansed (1), cleansing (1), commit (2), commits sin (1), committed (21), done wrong (1), errs (1), fault (1), fear...loss (1), forfeits (1), indicted (1), miss (1), offended (1), offered it for sin (1), offers it for sin (1), purged (1), purified (2), purified themselves from sin (1), purify (6), purify him from uncleanness (1), purify himself from uncleanness (2), reach (1), sin (55), sin have I committed (1), sinful (1), sinned (87), sinner (7), sinning (4), sins (23).

of the Old Testament and
ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
ham-ar-tan'-o
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:—for your faults, offend, sin, trespass…

of the new.

If we are merely talking about “missing the mark” in and of itself, there is no one who sinneth not.

On the other hand, if, and I believe there is sufficient warrant in the Word of God to support the “if” we are talking about willful transgressions, which is certainly how John describes it when he very clearly posits that the child of God does not continue in sin, and in fact makes the point very clearly that if we do, we do not know Him (Christ) {1 John 3: 3-10} as well as Paul himself (Romans 6:1, 6:15, and elsewhere) and Peter also (1 Peter 2:24, 4:1-3) and in fact the whole context of Peter’s argument in his 2nd epistle and Jude’s argument…. If we are talking about willful transgressions, then certainly there can and must come a time in our lives when, because of trust for a God who loved us and gave Himself for us, that the rebellion is dead; when the will to please God is the very will to live, not in theory but in practice.

I recently spoke of the pastor whose funeral I preached who had pastored here for 4 decades. Did the man make mistakes? Certainly. Was he sinless? Well if you mean did he never miss the mark, no he was not sinless, obviously there has only been one sinless One… but if you are speaking of loving God with all his heart and never willfully displeasing God and grieving at the very thought that he may have, then for all of my adult life and for almost two decades as a neighbor, I do not believe the man ever did anything willfully to displease God.

I further believe that there have been plenty of Christians through the centuries that have lived such selfless and dedicated lives to Christ that one could say of them that for the majority of their days they never willfully disobeyed God.

Does that by any means lessen the standard of God’s perfect holiness? No. Not by any means. There is none holy, in and of themselves, not at all, but then if we are going to take the scriptures in their entirety and not just select scriptures that paint the unrighteousness of men, we have to account for those many scriptures in which men are called by God Himself, “blameless, righteous, holy” from Genesis 6:9 all the way through the scriptures including all those dozens of scriptures in the Psalms regarding the “righteous”, and the reference in Ezekiel regarding Noah, Daniel and Job (14:14) and Elizabeth and Zachariah in Luke 1:6. Those in the Old Testament gladly confessed that “the Lord is our righteousness”. And certainly there is no righteousness that any of us can claim outside of Christ.

How can we account for the scriptures that John writes in his 1st epistle in which he talks about not committing sin…
πράσσω
prassō
pras'-so

A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally):—commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

If we are at the same time defending it and speaking of what the Word of God so clearly teaches in scriptures that would take pages to put down as “an impossibility”? Does God require impossibilities? No.

I believe the crux of the matter is what John says at the very beginning of his letter:
1 John 1:5 - 7 (KJV) 5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him,[u]and walk in darkness[/u] , we lie, and do not the truth: 7But [u]if we walk in the light[/u], as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son [u]cleanseth us from all sin.[/u]

Can we walk in the light? Can we come to a place where like the daughter whom I used as an illustration we have no desire at all to disobey and even in those things where we “mess up” it is with an heart of total desire to do what we to the best of our knowledge perceive to be His Will? Does that mean sinless perfection? Or course not. On the contrary does that not imply the very epitome of righteousness that has been recognized all through the Word of God, including Noah, Abraham and others? Their faith, their complete trust in God, their desire to please Him was accounted to them as righteousness. It was a heart righteousness, God knowing perfectly well their hearts and their desires.


Having a high view of God’s holiness, His sacrifice, His unfathomable love… it is just incomprehensible to me to argue that a person cannot come to a place of loving God to such a degree that all rebellion is gone. There may be for many of us a process of sin and error in which we have to learn through much suffering just how much love was in every instruction and correction of the Father till we come to that place of such trust that disobedience is unthinkable (apparently this is what Peter is referring to when he says that those who have suffered have ceased from sin)… but to argue that we can not come to that place, and to contend that it is ‘self-righteous’ to believe that we can, I believe is to argue against the experience of far too many, certainly in the Word of God, and certainly in history, that have demonstrated that love to such a degree that their lives are an astonishment to the world around them.

To relegate temptations and the thoughts that come to the mind as sin would be to condemn the very Son of God who was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. Certainly none of us is without temptation and without the devil trying to suggest to us the most vile and filthy and even blasphemous thing. He did so with Christ tempting the very Son of God to bow at the feet of the perverted lying murderer in exchange for what could be shown him in a moment’s time and that showing of the “glories” of this world by the very description includes all that is vile and disgusting and profane to the Holy God. But that temptation was not sin. The yielding to temptation as James so clearly points out is the point were temptation ends and sin begins.

To dismiss those who have preached total sanctification as poor ignorant and arrogant brethren because of the fact that many who teach it are an argument against it by their very lives, is to dismiss far too many others who perhaps did not argue the point, as the man of whom I have referred, but modeled it in such a way that from the first day I attended the church till the day he died, I always entered his presence with a respect that was earned by the holy life he lived. I can say that even though this man was my very best friend and we had many intimate conversations and even some healthy discussions on small points of disagreement, there were so many, many times, that I left his table, his study, the church office after those conversations, without him saying one word that was meant to convict me, but just mere conversation in which he was revealing his heart, and I would return to my home so full of a desire to get down before a Holy God and be filled with the Holy Spirit that could so permeate a man’s life that his simplest conversation was convicting.

Sinless perfection? Of course not. Have I arrived? No, but that is my aim. Excusing rebellion against the One who loved me and gave Himself for me… God forbid.




_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/2/14 13:55Profile









 Re: Attempt to explain view regarding sin

Now [i]this[/i] is love.

Thank you Brother Clint for posting this for us today.

The example of your daughter and other children touched my heart in many different ways and of course, the stories of your Pastor - very much so.

I believe it is all about that Love, but sometimes we must seek Him with all of our hearts before we can 'see' Who it is that we are 'to' love. I think we lack most, for not "seeking Him with all of our hearts" AFTER we've received Salvation. I think you know well what I mean by 'see' Him. "That I may KNOW Him" was what Paul said after Many years of having known Him.


Thank you again. Well displayed.

 2008/2/14 15:27
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Thank you Sister Annie for your response.

As I said, I am not trying to start a controversy, but simply trying to explain to those who may have been offended by my participation in the thread regarding this subject where instead of using my own words I posted those of someone else.

I am well aware that when we start naming off “omissions” and “commissions” and the whole litany of failures that are part a parcel of the human condition, we can get around finally to the Band-Aid that is supposed to cover it all” “nobody’s perfect”.

And if someone were to claim to me that they had arrived at sinless perfection I would have to be the first to say, “yeah right”. But then the apostle Paul quoted the Old Testament statement, “the just shall live by faith”. And the fact is that the garden was lost by doubting God, and we will only be saved by believing God. All through the Word of God those imperfect as far as human flesh is concerned were counted perfect because of absolute trust in God. Trust brings about obedience.

It is ironic that in these last days the lies (and BTW the Bible does have some lies in it) stated by Job’s detractors, whose words the Lord said “were not right like His servant Job” are the very arguments touted as “truth” in these days regarding faith. The very arguments of Eliphaz and Bildad and Zophar are point by point right in line with some of the “if you had faith you could speak to this that or the other sickness and it would be gone, and if you were right with God thus and so would not be happening or would be happening as the case may be, and too bad you will not confess your failures to God so that you can have all these things”.

And the truth is that because he trusted in God, God could trust him to continue to serve Him regardless of his losses. And the sad thing is that for lack of the kind of righteousness of Job, whom the Lord not only called blameless in the book after his name, but also called him that in the book of Ezekiel and elsewhere…. Because of so much superficial “faith” (Paul West said something along those lines on another thread) we have all these claims of binding this that or the other (and the devil is not bound and will not be bound until the angel does the job sometime in the future) claiming healing over this, that and the other, and yet we are seeing more folks bound in their sins, and our cities are filled with children that know nothing of God except what little they have been able to glean from TBN and the likes of those who mouth great swelling words for the sake of gaining an advantage.

So much talk about faith, and so few places where real revival is taking place and the town is convicted by the Holy
Spirit because of the drastic changes in men's lives.

So much talk about gifts, and I certainly believe in them, and so little fruit of the Spirit which is:
Galatians 5:22 - 23 (NKJV) 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, [b]longsuffering[/b] , kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Ephesians 5:9 - 10 (NKJV) 9(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, [b]righteousness[/b] , and truth), 10finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.

The tree is known by its fruit…
Romans 6:22 - 23 (NKJV) 22But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to [b]holiness[/b], and the end, everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/2/14 22:57Profile





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