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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is God the creator / author of sin?

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 Is God the creator / author of sin?

After much study into the topic of Calvinism... do the Calvinists on this forum believe that God is the creator / author of sin?

Also... If man has no freedom to choose, then how is it that he can be held responsible for something that is totally out of his control? i.e. rejecting God, sinning, etc? God makes man sin, and then judges him and condemns him? If this is true... how then can we call God a just God?

I'm asking cuz I'm curious what you think, not to spark a controversy. I've read what all the Calvinist heroes have had to say... Pink, Packer, etc... I want to hear what YOU think.

Krispy

 2008/2/12 10:02









 Re: Is God the creator / author of sin?

Yea... I thought so. 41 people have read this and no one wants to step up and answer this question for me.

This is the question that Calvinist can never offer a good answer to concerning their theology. Problem is tho, if you follow the line of reasoning involved with Calvinism... this is the only logical conclusion you can come to: God created sin/evil.

Krispy

 2008/2/12 11:08
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Does God make people retarded, riddle their bodies with cancer, or give them any number of terrible diseases…or is it just the result of the fall?

If God is sovereign, could he not have everyone born into a wonderfully healthy body?

Did God not know before the Earth was formed that few would be in heaven?
Yet, He created the world.

It appears to me God can, and does, what He wants…and I will not understand all of it this side of heaven.

We have a God that is bigger than us. Why should we even think we could comprehend all of His ways?

Just to let you know...I am not a Calvinist. But I have enjoyed this study as of late here on SI. I have also been reading much this last month. Spurgeon, Warfield, Sproul, etc…and though I am not fully convinced in all areas, I have discovered that as a child those who taught me about Calvinism did not know anything about it.

There are parts of reformed theology that have been dismissed by many…that I see in scripture.

Does everything have to be completely reconciled…or is there room for Godly paradox?



_________________
TJ

 2008/2/12 11:09Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

I believe A.W. Tozer was correct when he said," God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, "0 Lord, Thou knowest." Those things belong to the deep and mysterious profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints."


_________________
TJ

 2008/2/12 11:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Did God not know before the Earth was formed that few would be in heaven?



But there is a big difference between foreknowledge and fore-ordained.

Quote:
It appears to me God can, and does, what He wants…and I will not understand all of it this side of heaven.



Amen to that... but when a theology makes God the creator of sin, there is a problem. And many Calvinist apologists have even stated that this is what they believe. How can they deny this as truth according to their system of theology? They cant.

Quote:
We have a God that is bigger than us. Why should we even think we could comprehend all of His ways?



I agree with this too. Please dont mistake my passion over this topic to be misunderstood as me trying to comprehend all there is to know. I know I dont know everything, believe me. lol

Quote:
Just to let you know...I am not a Calvinist. But I have enjoyed this study as of late here on SI. I have also been reading much this last month. Spurgeon, Warfield, Sproul, etc…and though I am not fully convinced in all areas, I have discovered that as a child those who taught me about Calvinism did not know anything about it.



As you're reading these Calvinist apologists, be sure to read Dave Hunt's book "What Love Is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God". There will be some who will try and tear this book down and say Hunt doesnt know what he's talking about... but I have found that almost all of his arguments and conclusions are scriptural, logical and I am perfectly at peace with them. People cant argue with Hunt, so they call him ignorant. Not much of a defense of Calvinism if you ask me. And Hunts credentials are impressive... he knows what he's talking about, and he understands Calvinism inside and out.

Quote:
Does everything have to be completely reconciled…or is there room for Godly paradox?



No, but Calvinism involved two very important issues... salvation and God's character. Calvinism takes a handful of verses (which I believe they misunderstand) and use them to paint a picture of God that is vastly different from the other 31,000 verses in the Bible.

I am also weary of all the "word definition" changes Calvinists have to make in order to fit Calvinism into the Bible. They may not be adding or subtracting words, but to me... changing the meaning of words is the same thing, and forbidden by God.

Those important issue DO in fact need to be reconciled.

Krispy

 2008/2/12 11:29
Ruach34
Member



Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296
Beijing

 Re:

I must take the easy road on this and agree with this quote:


Quote:
The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, "0 Lord, Thou knowest." Those things belong to the deep and mysterious profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints."



simply because I am unlearned in this issue. But could we not be satisfied with this quote and cease from trying to understand. I could say, "yes," but many won't.

When a woman stands up in an assembly and with trembling tells a story of her son perishing with a horrible disease and how her husband beats her...would it be enough to respond with this quote? Would it ease her pain, take away her fear?

i have to consider that the above statement is the final statement, that it is in fact the Lord our God who knows. No matter the determination we make on the issue.

So is it safe for me to remain ignorant on this issue?


_________________
RICH

 2008/2/12 11:50Profile
Iloveyou
Member



Joined: 2007/12/29
Posts: 2


 Re: Is God the creator / author of sin?

All lot of people have a very narrow minded view of God. The say God would never do this because he is love, when we should say Love is not this because it is not Godly.
To answer is God the author of sin you must start from Aquinas' view of pure actuality. God posses all things from beginning and end, he is infinitely wiser than us and nothing is out of his control.
God created Satan, and in Job we see that Satan can only go as far as God will let him. Again Jesus tells peter that Satan wants to sift him like wheat but HE prays for God to prevent this.
If Sin did not come from the creator than there is an outside source creating things that is not under God's Control.
If you Say God did not create sin, than you automatically have 2 or more creating gods. The concept of Good and Evil opposing each other comes from ZorthoAstroism - the religion of the Babylonian wise men (MAGI).
Let us not forget the scriptures which tell us that "even though you meant it for evil, God meant it for Good." or "All things work together for the good of those who love God, and are called according to His Purpose (ELECT).

Just because something is from a Calvinist Doctrine does not condemn it to be false, that is a Genetic Fallacy like saying he is wrong because he is black or white.
Hope this was helpful.

 2008/2/12 11:54Profile









 Re:

So you are saying God created sin then? Since man has no will of his own, and God controls everything we do, then he causes men to sin and then condemns them for it.

Thats not my God.

Quote:
Just because something is from a Calvinist Doctrine does not condemn it to be false, that is a Genetic Fallacy like saying he is wrong because he is black or white.



Let me be very clear on something... there are many things Calvinist get absolutely correct. I know it sounds like I am saying otherwise, but I am not. But the great error of Calvinism is a warped or extreme view of God's sovreignty.

The God who can not look upon evil did not create evil. Nor does He make men commit evil, as Calvinism teaches.

Krispy

 2008/2/12 12:01
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Ergun Canner said, “I don’t understand election, but if the Bible says you’re elect…you’re elect. I don’t understand electricity, but I don’t sit in the dark.”

The Bible is clear that some are elect. I also see what appears to be some sort of responsibility for the believer as well. I’m not sure this is so easy to reconcile.

If I may quote John MacArthur (not endorsing all his views):

“The problem is not whether you believe those. The problem is how you harmonize them, right? You know how you harmonize them? No, you don't. You don't know how to harmonize them. Because there is no way to harmonize them. And, the way that I like to illustrate it is this, Is Jesus God or man? Both. Is He all man? 100 % man? 100 % God? How can He be 200 %? It is a paradox.”

Maybe he has a point.

Either way, I accept that what is in the Bible is true…even if I cannot fully understand it.

I don’t believe it is time to end my investigation just yet…I will continue to read.

I will get Hunt’s book. May I suggest that you get

What is Reformed Theology?: Understanding the Basics by R.C. Sproul.

This is not a book defending Reformed theology…it is a description. Don’t think you know all that is needed about reformed theology until you read this book…it is very enlightening. There are several Arminians that gave the book a good review as well. Check out the reviews at Amazon.

God bless you brother on your journey of greater understanding.


_________________
TJ

 2008/2/12 12:01Profile
BenK
Member



Joined: 2006/12/17
Posts: 49
Harrisburg PA

 Re: Is God the creator / author of sin?

This is a really interesting topic that has been on my mind lately. I'm reading through the OT and a couple thoughts and questions that I have are:

1. Death came into the world because sin and the resultant curse-Isn't GOD the one who cursed man? Wouldn't that mean that death comes out of the curse and therefore God?

2. I have heard many say over the years that God doesn't make sickness or make people sick, that it is a result of the curse. If that's the case,
then how do you explain all of the OT verses where God says that he will make His people sick as punishment? Deuteronomy 28:27,Numbers 5:27,Deuteronomy 28:61 and many others. Also he made the Egyptians sick(plauge of boils) as punishment.

3. In response to your question Krispy, didn't God create all things? Is there something (sin) in this world that is beyond God, beyond His creation? I know that Satan can't create anything so is sin outside the realm of creation?


I don't have any kind of agenda. I am honestly interested in learning more about our Awesome God.


_________________
Benjamin Kreps

 2008/2/12 12:06Profile





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