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 Re: the ancient paths

[size=x-small][color=CC3333][b]Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that [u]I Am[/u], ye shall die in your sins. [/b][/color][/size]



John Wesley on Joh 8:24 - " If ye believe not that I AM - Here (as in Joh_8:58) our Lord claims the Divine name, I AM, Exo_3:14."

Vincent's Word Studies ~ "I am (εγω ειμι) the words are rather the solemn expression of His absolute divine being, as in Joh_8:58 : “If ye believe not that I am.”
See Deu_32:39; Isa_43:10; and compare Joh_8:28, Joh_8:58 of this chapter, and Joh_13:19."

A.T. Roberson ~ "The phrase egō eimi occurs three times here (Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28, Joh_8:58) and also in Joh_13:19"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Isa 48:12,13 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; [b]I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.[/b] [u] Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. [/u]

Joh 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and [b]the Word was God[/b]. The same was in the beginning with God. [u]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.[/u]

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, [b]the first, and with the last; I am he. [/b]

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; [b]I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [/b]

Rev 1:8[b] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. [/b]

Rev 1:11 Saying, [b]I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last[/b]

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; [b]I am the first and the last[/b]

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. [b]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.[/b]

Rev 22:13 [b]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [/b]


[color=CC3333][b]WHO IS JESUS?[/b][/color]

 2008/2/8 14:30
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Sharon,

Do you believe that when a person dies to sin that they are then alive to the law?

If a person has been saved through faith in Christ is he now under obligation to keep the law which could not save him, with the comfort of knowing that if he does not succeed Christ will intervene again and forgive his transgressions, but will do so with the object of again placing him under an obligation to keep the law?

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2008/2/8 16:05Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths


Hi Chris

Your first question was quoted from Acts I believe:

Acts.15: [1] But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
[2] And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
[10] Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

I understand here that Peter rebuked those who required the circumcision of adult Gentile converts in order for them to become part of the covenant people of Israel. Clearly that was not part of the Good News, which declared that the Gentiles could now 'come as they are', and be reconciled to God through the accomplishment of Jesus the Messiah.

Once reconciled, they would slowly learn His ways and begin to walk in newness of life, through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:21 says that Moses is read every Sabbath in the synagogues. The new believers would then be instructed in how they should walk, as they searched the scriptures (OT), and heard the Torah (5 books of Moses) preached every Sabbath day.

Thank you

Sharon



:-)

 2008/2/8 22:55Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Chris, your second question to me was - What exactly are you trying to compel us to do?

The answer is that I am not compelling anyone to do anything. I am suggesting that we re-examine the writings of Paul in the light of some considerations:

~~~ [b]The warning given us by Peter regarding the writings of Paul[/b]:

2Peter 3:[14] Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish;
[15] and regard the patience of our LORD as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
[17] You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability.

~~~ [b]The weight of the rest of the Scriptures...[/b]

...which uphold the eternal Torah of God. The entire TaNaK, (Old Testament), through to Yeshua, the apostles, and the book of Revelations, the Torah (eternal law of God in the 5 books of Moses) is never spoken of as a 'curse' or something to be abhorred and rejected. Given that, we have to try and understand what Paul was saying. For surely one man's writings cannot turn the entire Torah of the Eternal God of Israel into a 'curse' in a few selected verses? Remember Jesus said that whoever does and teaches the commandments of God would be called Great in the Kingdom of Heaven. The NT closes with those who 'keep the commandments of God and the faith of Yeshua'. In Rev 22:14 we have "Blessed are those that do His commandments, that they might have the right to the tree of life".

~~~ [b]Paul upholds the Law in certain verses, as recorded in my earlier post.[/b] e.g.

Romans 7: 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin…

Romans 7: 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; (1 Corinthians 7: [19] Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Paul himself speaks of the [b]Mystery of LawLESSness and the Man of LawLESSness[/b] in 2 Thess.

~~~[b]Read Psalm 119 written by David...[/b]

[b]He LOVES the Laws, the Commandments, the Precepts, the Ordinances of the LORD! In fact, he DELIGHTS in the law of God, and would never think to call it a "burden" or a "curse" or a "weak and beggarly element". God forbid![/b]

Here are some examples of the Joy expressed by David, and which I can fully identify with, when considering the Torah of my God, which He has written on my heart and caused me to walk in:


Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Psalms 112:1 Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.

Psalms 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Psalms 119:24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.

Psalms 119:35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

Psalms 119:47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

Psalms 119:69 The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.
70 Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.

Psalms 119:77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

Psalms 119:92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

Psalms 119:143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.

Psalms 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.



Delighting in the ways of the LORD,

Sharon

:-)

 2008/2/8 23:03Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi sharon,


Sharon, you said,


"I understand here that Peter rebuked those who required the circumcision of adult Gentile converts in order for them to become part of the covenant people of Israel. Clearly that was not part of the Good News, which declared that the Gentiles could now 'come as they are', and be reconciled to God through the accomplishment of Jesus the Messiah.

Once reconciled, they would slowly learn His ways and begin to walk in newness of life, through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:21 says that Moses is read every Sabbath in the synagogues. The new believers would then be instructed in how they should walk, as they searched the scriptures (OT), and heard the Torah (5 books of Moses) preached every Sabbath day."



Why would Peter refer to circumcison [b]only[/b] as


"...a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"





It looks as though there was more dispute than that,




[b][color=000000]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [/color][/b]

- Acts 15:5(KJV)


Not only to circumcise, but [b]to keep the law of Moses[/b]



And so the Apostles also say this in the letter


[b][color=000000] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: [/color][/b]


-Acts 15:24(KJV)



Elsewhere, I think(correct me if I'm worng), I recall you suggesting that this was a temporary, 'emergency' regulation or guidance for them?


In Acts chapter 21 verse 25 it says the same thing again.





Thank you,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/8 23:14Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Ron,


Romans 6: [11] So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.
[13] Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.
[14] For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
[15] What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

According to the above verses, (from which I think you posed your question), we are to consider ourselves dead to sin, and alive to God in Christ Jesus. We are not to let sin reign in us, or yield ourselves to it, but to live in righteousness. The quickening life that is given us when we come to God for forgiveness, (because of the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah), enables us to walk in freedom from sin, having as it says, 'the law written on our hearts'. "By no means" are we to sin, Paul says!

Let us look again at the scriptural definition of sin:

1John 3:4 [b]"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness[/b] (459), [b]and sin is lawlessness.[/b]" (459)

Thayers Greek Lexicon # 459 anomos {an'-om-os}from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3551; TDNT - 4:1086,646; adj
AV - without law 4, transgressor 2, wicked 2, lawless 1, unlawful 1; 10
[b]1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
1a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked[/b]

also,

Another verse found in the book of 1 John gives helpful information regarding a definition of sin. Here sin is described as [b]unrighteousness.[/b]

(1 John 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Righteousness is a word used to describe the state of being in conformity with God's laws and requirements. Consider the description of Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth found in the gospel of Luke:

(Luke 1:5-6) In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. {6} And they were both [b]righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord[/b].

These two godly people were described as being righteous in the site of God as they were observing His commandments and requirements. Furthermore in many places in scripture righteousness is contrasted with lawlessness. The obvious inference is that those who are living in consistent patterns of disobedience to God's laws are considered to be unrighteous and those acts which are contrary to God's law are considered to be unrighteous acts.

Consider also these scriptures:

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, {10} nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

(2 Corinthians 6:14) Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

It becomes clear then to me that unrighteousness is the same as lawlessness both of which describe the concept of sin. An informative verse related to these concepts is found in the book of Hebrews. The writer of this book points out the Jesus was exalted to a position above all others because he [b]hated lawlessness and loved righteousness[/b]. Again the contrast serves to define the nature of unrighteousness as lawlessness.

Sin and unrighteousness are thus breaking the law and commandments of God. [b]Paul says that we are 'by no means' to sin, that grace may abound.[/b]

John goes on to teach us what happens if we do sin, (i.e. break, violate or depart from the law) and are guilty of unrighteousness, even after beginning our walk in the Light:

1John.2 [1] My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
[2] and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
[5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
[6] he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked
[7] but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
[8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1John.2 [1] My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
[2] and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

We are to walk [b]"In the same way that He walked"[/b]......Jesus the Messiah upheld and was obedient to the Torah of His Father. When we do so, we are alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

Ezekiel 36 [26] [b]A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
[27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances[/b].

Keeping the commands of the LORD is not an [b]obligation,[/b] but a [b]joy![/b]
That is how I understand it.
Thank you,
May He lead us into all truth, because I believe we are living in the days that Jeremiah prophesied of:

Jer.16:19 ..."to thee shall the nations (gentiles) come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nought but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit...

Sharon


 2008/2/8 23:24Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again Sharon,


Sharon, you asked


"For surely one man's writings cannot turn the entire Torah of the Eternal God of Israel into a 'curse' in a few selected verses?"



But in the Law it was written,

[b][color=000000] Cursed [i]be[/i] he that confirmeth not [i]all[/i] the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. [/color][/b]


- Deuteronomy, chapter 27 verse 26(KJV)



James the Apostle says





[b][color=000000]For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [i]point[/i], he is guilty of all. [/color][/b]


-James 2:10(KJV)



Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/8 23:25Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Chris,

Circumcision is part of the Law of God given unto Moses. These men were expecting newly converted Gentiles to be circumcised and to be observing the Torah [b]before[/b] being admitted into the fellowship of believers. This was how Gentiles had previously been converted, and the process took a long time.

Peter spoke out against this old conversion practice, welcoming the new believers into their fellowship, with 4 restrictions placed on them. I call these 4 restrictions 'emergency rulings', which would allow a brand-new convert to immediately gain access to fellowship and full acceptance. These people would have been used to pagan temple practices, and idolatory is considered absolutely abhorrent to anyone professing faith in the one God of Israel. These 4 restrictions were to do with pagan idol temple practices.

Today we might have other concerns which would be addressed when bringing in a new convert. For example, a really skimply dressed young lady might be asked to wear something a little more moderate when attending a fellowship meeting. One would not try and teach the way of discipleship to her straight away, but some things might need immediate attention, if they are totally unacceptable in a fellowship group.

[i]Obviously those 4 rulings were and are not today the only requirements that Gentiles have[/i] in order to participate in the community of believers.

Some groups and churches have very strict rulings, even adding to the commandments of God, while other groups are very liberal and allow most anything.

I believe that the standard, the plumbline, are the commandments of God as given to Moses. Many of those commandments have to do with the Ceremonial Law as pertaining to the sacrificial system, which are no longer for us today, as Messiah is now our living High Priest.

The Torah (commandments, teachings, law of God found in the 5 books of Moses), are the railway lines that a train is safest and best on, or the guide posts along the way, the ancient landmarks, which, by the power of the Holy Spirit within us, we can seek to walk in, as Jesus the Messiah did.

Sharon

 2008/2/9 0:25Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Hi again Chris,

Yes, I did say that I cannot see how certain verses in one man's writings could overthrow the entire Torah of the Eternal God of Israel, and have the Torah suddenly become a 'curse'.

Especially when other verses he wrote uphold the Torah, and the Messiah himself said that those who obey the commandments and teach them to others would be called great in the Kingdom of heaven. (detailed in previous post)

I think we may have missed what the [i]curse[/i] actually is. Could the 'curse' be the punishment which is awaiting us when we break the Torah? For in the Law it is written that the person who does not keep the law is cursed, as you said. The [i]law itself[/i] is not the curse, but the [i]breaking of it[/i] results in a curse of punishment. The curse is death.

The LORD said: I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants. We are to choose LIFE, and receive the blessing, not DEATH, because then we will be cursed.

Now Messiah, the perfect one, willingly offered to take the curse on our behalf, taking on Himself our punishment for breaking the commands of the LORD. We should not take that lightly, and willingly go on breaking the commands which He paid so dearly for us because of our violating of them. We should not sin that grace may abound.

In your post you quoted from James also.

James 2[10] For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
[11] For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not kill." If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

I don't see a problem with that. I think many would agree that those things are transgressing the law, and totally unacceptable for those professing to be disciples of Messiah to be engaged in.

James 2: [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, ....
verse[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Thanks,
Sharon




 2008/2/9 0:31Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Sharon,

You said


"Circumcision is part of the Law of God given unto Moses. These men were expecting newly converted Gentiles to be circumcised and to be observing the Torah before being admitted into the fellowship of believers. This was how Gentiles had previously been converted, and the process took a long time.

Peter spoke out against this old conversion practice, welcoming the new believers into their fellowship, with 4 restrictions placed on them. I call these 4 restrictions 'emergency rulings', which would allow a brand-new convert to immediately gain access to fellowship and full acceptance."



But Sharon, where do you read this in the scriptures?


Sharon, who was it that established these churches? Was it these Pharasiees? Or Paul and the other Apostles?



At the end of chapter 14 it says that they had been at Anticoh a [b]...long time with the disciples. [/b]


And [b]then[/b], it says


[b][color=000000]And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [/color][/b]


They did not say, "you cannot be amitted into fellowship", but [b][color=000000]ye cannot be saved[/color][/b].




[b]Sharon, where are you reading what you are teaching here?[/b]



Sharon, you said


"I call these 4 restrictions 'emergency rulings', which would allow a brand-new convert to immediately gain access to fellowship and full acceptance."


But these same things are mentioned again in Acts chapter 21?


Yes, these are not the only things that believers are expected to observe. But the doctrine and practice of the Church was not being called into question here, it was the teaching of these Pharisees...


[b][color=000000]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [/color][/b]


The Apostles wrote a letter in response [b]to what was being taught by these Pharisees[/b].




Sharon, Paul was a former pharisee, and he knew what was written in the law of Moses, but he says


[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.[/color][/b]


He writes here also in the second chapter of Galatians, and isn't this exactly the same kind of situation we are talking about? But Titus, a greek, was not made to be circumcised?



"Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [i]me[/i] also. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:"


- Galatians 2:1-5(KJV)




Sharon, this is really concerning. I hope you will understand my concern about this,


Thanks,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 1:06Profile





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