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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Wine or Grapejuice?

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Allen
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Joined: 2003/4/30
Posts: 4
Kentucky

 Wine or Grapejuice?

Here's the rules. #1. Love thy neighbor as thyself when giving your answer or defending yourself. #2. Just for kicks, I would like for everyone, after they give their thoughts on whether it's suppose to be (fermented) Wine or (non-fermented) Grapejuice, used in the Lord's Supper, to write down their personal denomination. I'm just being curious. By the way....I believe Wine, and I'm Southern Baptist. :-D

 2003/8/5 13:11Profile
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 Re: Wine or Grapejuice?

Quote:
whether it's suppose to be (fermented) Wine or (non-fermented) Grapejuice, used in the Lord's Supper


hmm well I personally don't drink any alchol at all by Gods grace, and that's between me and him. It says in timothy somewhere that he should drink abit of wine to help his stomach. So I would drink the non-alcholic beverage! grapejuice.. mmm yummy

Quote:
write down their personal denomination.


Not that denominations matter at all! but I am currently a member of the Presbyterian Denomination.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/8/5 13:28Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Wine or Grapejuice?

Considering my church uses those dinky little cups, I don't think anybody would know which one it was. :-D

Grape juice, there are kids there.

Denomination:

Non-denomonational, got to love a term for something your NOT :-D

And I agree with Wrtbooks, they shouldn't matter anyways.
_/crsschk\_


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Mike Balog

 2003/8/6 23:46Profile
willykin
Member



Joined: 2003/8/7
Posts: 2


 Re: Wine or Grapejuice?

I have the idea that grape juice is kinda like using little cubes of "leavened" bread instead of breaking a common piece of unleavened bread...seems a bit of an abomination to me...I have heard the arguement about "alchoholics", but then think that if drunkenness is a sin, and you are born again, then it should not be a problem...then i think about yeast being a "type" for sin, and worldliness... and think how very appropriate it is that we water down the "wine" of the Gospel, and use the "leaven' of the world...like I said, just thoughts...I tend to call myself a baptist, but prefer the name "Christ ian...."
Allen wrote:
Here's the rules. #1. Love thy neighbor as thyself when giving your answer or defending yourself. #2. Just for kicks, I would like for everyone, after they give their thoughts on whether it's suppose to be (fermented) Wine or (non-fermented) Grapejuice, used in the Lord's Supper, to write down their personal denomination. I'm just being curious. By the way....I believe Wine, and I'm Southern Baptist. :-D


 2003/8/7 23:15Profile
sdb
Member



Joined: 2003/7/4
Posts: 129
tucson

 Re: New wine

Saved, born again and washed in the blood and filled with the Holy Ghost.........I was always taught that it was New Wine or unfermented ---therefore...Grape juice!!!!!!! I guess you could consider me interdenominational ;-)

 2003/8/8 0:45Profile
Herdman
Member



Joined: 2003/7/25
Posts: 15


 Re: Wine or Grapejuice?

First we’ll look at the Last Supper. In not one of the gospels recording this event is there any mention of "wine." Just examine the texts:


Matt. 26:27, "…he took the cup"

Matt. 26:29, "…I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."

Mk. 14:23, "…he took the cup"

Mk. 14:25, "…the fruit of the vine"

Lk. 22:17, "…he took the cup"

Lk. 22:18, "…the fruit of the vine"

When Paul deals with the Lord’s Supper, he refers to the "cup:"


1 Cor. 11:25, "…he took the cup"

1 Cor. 11:26, "…drink this cup"

1 Cor. 11:27, "…drink this cup"

1 Cor. 11:28, "…drink of that cup"

The Bible makes no mention of wine, but only the fruit of the vine. That’s very important because "new wine is found in the cluster," (Is. 65:8). The grapes can be pressed directly into the cup (Gen. 40:10-11), which is what the butler did who dreamed about the vine and branches.

A careful study of Deut. 29:29-38 with 1 Cor. 10:16-21 and 1 Cor. 11:23-32 will reveal to you that there are two different Communions. One is a "memorial" to a risen Saviour who soon will return, and the other is "a sacrifice and offering" to devils. You can be sure that the memorial is not conducted with fermented liquor any more than the first one was.

Baptist

 2003/9/4 13:17Profile
Chosen7Stone
Member



Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268
FL, USA

 Re: Wine or Grapejuice?

I also believe that grape juice should be used. Not because there are children present, since I don't think children really understand the significance of the Lord's Supper yet (it's a personal opinion...let's stay on topic!).
I have a strong personal conviction against alcohol in general. Greg referenced 1 Timothy 5:23...water was not clean during those times and contained bacteria which caused much illness and even death. Alcohol killed the bacteria, which tells me it was used for medicinal purposes. The Bible also frequently condemns drunkenness, and in these times it's too easy a temptation to give into for many. Also, how are we to know if perhaps a Christian struggling with alcoholism or an alcoholic past might not be presented that temptation in church, when wine is presented for the Lord's supper?
In my eyes, there are so many reasons to avoid the use of alcohol.

I do not have a denomination...I'm simply Christian (which is enough :-) ) but I choose to worship at a Southern Baptist church.


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Mary M.

 2003/9/4 14:35Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: ???????

This one is just toooooooo good to pass up!:-D I'll deal with my denominational affiliation first if that's ok. I consider myself first and foremost a Christian, if I had to give myself any other title outside of that it would be Pentecostal(classic pentecostal). I attend an Assembly of God in Bismark Missouri and I am a student at Central Bible College in Springfield.

Before I go into this I will say that I am against using wine in the Lord's supper. But I must say that we have to treat this subject in honesty and not fall to historical fabrications of goodwilled men who made stuff up to try to help God out a little with the temperance movement.

As it is hard to accurately convey emotions through writing I will say that I am answering this in the spirit of the rules of the debate that Allan laid out and will remain lighthearted.

First we must deal with a little history. The only way to store grape juice was to ferment it. Actually, when grape juice was stored that's exactly what it did. Mr. Welch didn't exist until the 1800's. That's when he invented the pasturizing process to stop the fermentation. So, unless you were popping a grape into your mouth, you didn't drink grape juice, you drank wine.

sbd wrote: "I was always taught that it was New Wine or unfermented ---therefore...Grape juice!!!!!!! "

Reply: You were taught wrong my brother. New wine is actually more intoxicating than other wines. It had not been watered down yet.

Herdman, I love you in the Lord so please take this in the commical fassion that I am hoping to convey, but I wish my vehicle got as much mileage as you did out of these scriptures...lol. You really did some backflips on this one bro.

Here is a scripture you used: Matt. 26:29, "…I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."

And then you did some wrestling here to wrench out of this passage that they were only drinking grape juice.

Let me quote a passage that Jesus was referring to when He said He will not drink of the "fruit of the vine" until He drinks it in the kingdom with us.

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the Lord almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of *aged wines*--the best of meats and the finest of *wines.*

This chapter is an apocolyptic prohecy of the final age when all of God's people are finally gathered together forever. There can be no mistaking what Isaiah meant here when he wrote this down.

Now the passages you used to back your position. Genisis 40:10-11 (This is a dream. The grapes being squeezed into the cup were symbolic of wine. There is nothing in history to support the practice of merely squeezing grapes into a cup)

Isaiah 65:8 Thus says the Lord, "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit it it,' So I will act on behalf of My servants in order not to destroy all of them.

You are creating a pretext when you take this to mean that new wine is merely grape juice. Here the passage is speaking of the Lord preparing to bring judgement upon His people, a severe judgement.

Israel here is compared to a cluster of grapes and the Lord is saying that he will spare some as they are still benificial to Him. Just like you wouldn't destroy the good grapes with the bad ones because the good ones can still make, guess what?, wine.

Quote: "A careful study of Deut. 29:29-38 with 1 Cor. 10:16-21 and 1 Cor. 11:23-32 will reveal to you that there are two different Communions. One is a "memorial" to a risen Saviour who soon will return, and the other is "a sacrifice and offering" to devils. You can be sure that the memorial is not conducted with fermented liquor any more than the first one was."

Reply: I'm sure that the chapter you provided for Deutoronomy is a typo as ch. 29 has only 29 verses. But I did a study of those as you suggested. There is certainly a difference made between the worship of the Lord and the worship of idols. Unfortunately it had nothing to do with alcohol my friend. The content of the drink was not Moses' or Paul's concern. They were dealing with people who were involved in idolatry, in other words they were going to temples in honor of idols and participating in the worship there. Paul and Moses had nothing to say about alcohol in these passages.

In conclusion I will say that I stand with those wholeheartedly who are against the use of alcohol in communion, but neither will I condemn those who do use it. We cannot, cannot, try to make the scriptures say something that they just are not saying. Gordon Fee put it best when he said that the scriptures cannot mean what they never meant. The Bible is clearly and absolutely against drunkeness. But, in light of scripture, I can only, honestly say that the Bible does not condemn the PROPER use of alcohol. And I cannot stress PROPER enough here.

Much love,
In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey



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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/5 23:46Profile
Herdman
Member



Joined: 2003/7/25
Posts: 15


 Re: grape juice

Don't you just cringe when some smug "scholar" tells you how a thing was in history and then doesn't cite references to show you the "proof?"

Hulsey's statement on the history of storing grape juice is completely and thoroughly refuted by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University at the following website:

http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

Dr. Bacchiocchi describes four different ancient methods of preserving grape juice and quotes sources to prove the processes. Hulsey was just pulling your leg when he said that juice preservation didn't start until pastuerization.

The reason for quoting the New Testament references on the Lord's Supper was to show that neither the Lord nor Paul ever referred to "wine" in its observance. Nor did they refer to "new wine." "Fruit of the vine" is the phrase used.

Furthermore, there is no creation of a pretext in quoting Is. 65:8, for a Biblical definition of new wine. The reference is a similitude that uses the new wine in the cluster as a simile for the Lord not destroying all his servants. And the Bible says, "As new wine is found in the cluster..." That's where it's found.

Dr. Bacchiocchi deals with the reference to Is. 25:6 in his description of an ancient method of preserving grape juice through filtration.

The reference in Deut. is to Deut. 32, not Deut. 29.

In passing, the process of fermentation takes place when yeast converts sugar to alcohol and carbon dioxode. Yeast is a leavening agent. In order for fermented wine to have been used at the Lord's Supper, therefore, the juice would have been subjected to leaven. That's a nice combination with "unleavened" bread, don't you think?

In Jesus,
Herdman

 2003/9/11 20:58Profile
Chosen7Stone
Member



Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268
FL, USA

 Re:

Let's avoid namecalling and flaming at all costs, Herdman. No one was being smug; Hulsey was simply enthusiastic and happy to share his knowledge with us. Whether you agree or not, Herdman, explain your point with love, as we're commanded to do.


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Mary M.

 2003/9/11 22:08Profile





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