No apologies necessary gentlemen I'm gleaning crumbs from the rabbit trail as well :-) At any rate, I appreciate also the link for the book and I've already ordered it and look forward to reading it. I believe it's of utmost importance to inform this brother whom I've been having this discussion with about the heart and the condition of it after regeneration so as not to error on the side of pride that we're "ok" once "The love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost" but rather that it is a continuing shedding of His love and as John the Baptist declared "of his fullness have all we received, and grace upon grace." I think my brother's argument leads toward a path of self righteousness and is as I like to call it "the strong man mentality" which leaves no room to receive grace at a certain point.
Wow! You are quick.There have been a few posts about this sort of subject: new man vs. old man, why do I sin, perfectionism, etc.You may want to try a Systematic Theology text.Someone has reproduced Charles Hodge's text online. I have not read it, but Richard Owen Roberts quoted from it in a sermon so we can go from there...I would suggest Part III on "salvation" (soteriology) in regards to your post.[url=http://www.dabar.org/Theology/Hodge/TableofContents/Content_Intro.htm]Hodge[/url]If you like it, It is available in book form. CBD has the 3 volume set for $25 (retail $100).[url=http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/153147801?item_no=34594&netp_id=118445&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW]Book[/url]Hopefully this will help in your quest. Mr. Roberts' book will address many things, both theological and practical (that is to say, walking the walk). Read it to have your questions answered, but also read it to let the Holy Spirit conform you the the image of the Son! (I only say this because it becomes very easy to study theology and engage our minds and forget the practical application of Scripture!)God bless you as you seek Him!Matthew
Here's another thought...Read the Bible from cover to cover. As you come across a passage that deals with the "heart" (or anything related, regeneration, new birth, putting on Christ, walking in the Spirit, dying to self, etc. Whatever subject you are looking to learn.) put a mark by the passage. Pray that God would show you each passage you need to study.When you are done, you will have a large list of Scriptures. Go back through your Bible and list all the passages you marked...Next, study all of those passages. With computers, it should be easy to cut-and-paste all of the passages into one document.So, now is the time to seriously pray about the subject. Write notes!!! (This will serve for later reflecion as well as a legacy for your children (if and when God blesses)).By studying all of the passages of Scripture on a subject as the Bible presents them, that will give you the fullest understanding of the topic.I did this in regards to prayer (well, I've started). I've read the New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs (thanks to the Gideons!). Every passage where someone directly prayed (in the Gospels if they talked to Jesus, or asked a question) I marked with a "P"! Every time Paul said, "I am praying for you..." You get the idea. Now I will do the same in the Old Testament. I did this because I wanted to find Scriptures to pray for my wife and children. Nothing like praying God' will...So that would be my first recommendation to you. It will take some time (I know you want to help your friend), but it will be worth it. We have the promise that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all Truth (John 16:13), trust Him to teach you. I apologize that the Word was not my first suggestion to you.Please let me know if you undertake this study (and make sure you write it all down!).God bless,Matthew
What do you guys think about the idea that someone may not recieve their salvation upon "praying the prayer"?I think something has to happen to someone to change them before they can truly repent and be saved.Like you were mentioning in Romans 6-8 it says that the sinful man is hostile to God, and it won't submit to God. I think that the the scriptures show that regeneration is dramatic at first, does a lot of changing, such as the mindset and values of people(1 Cor 5,and the book 1 John), but doesnt ever stop changing us (2 Corinthians 3:18)All to and for Him
_________________John C. Kelly
Matthew,I will plan on starting the word and verse study beginning tomorrow, Saturday. I will keep you up to date as to how it's progressing. Thanks for the advice.