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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate)

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intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
Is it? Is this really what God is looking for from us, by which to define unity?



If not within the sufficiency of God's word, then where, indeed?

...Programs?

...Emergent "conversation"?

...Syncretism with non-Christian authorities that try to solve the same problems in secular organizations?

...Veggietales?

I think that one of the important things we really need to realize is that if scripture truly is the revelation of god and as such it is inspired, innerant and infallible, then therefore, not only does it dictate the principles that define who we are as Christians, but it also regulates the resulting applications and methodologies that eventually stem from it.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2Ti 4:5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

If such be the case for training the "man of God", how much more so for the men?


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2008/1/27 8:14Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.



Was reminded of this story from one of Pastor Wurmbrands messages about these two peices of sugar that kept circulating among the very sick prisoners. Even though they were very sick, perhaps even unto death, no one would take the sugar themselves but saved it for others.




I copied the following down from one of the messages titled [i]The Church Triumphant[/i]



“God is the Truth. The Bible is the truth about the Truth. The sermons are the truth about the truth about the Truth. Theology, if it is a fundamentalist one, is the truth about the truth about the truth about the Truth. And because of so much scaffolding around the Truth, because of the multitude of words, the truth is drowned. I wish you to meet God Himself, in the year which stands before us.”



_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/27 8:48Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate)

Quote:
It must be mentioned that reasoning is much different than debate.



Some things are so well spoken that there is a great hesitancy to even respond to them. So I found this, the whole of it, reading it quite a few days ago. Interesting to note the way the word is used in scripture.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[u][b]Debate[/b][/u]

[b]H7378[/b]

רוּב ריבo

rîyb rûb

[i]reeb, roob[/i]

A primitive root; properly to [i]toss[/i], that is, [i]grapple[/i]; mostly figuratively to wrangle, that is, [i]hold a controversy[/i]; (by implication) to [i]defend[/i]: - adversary, chide, complain, contend, debate, X ever, X lay wait, plead, rebuke, strive, X thoroughly.

Used in;

Pro 25:9-10 [b]Debate[/b] thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another: Lest he that heareth it put thee to shame, and thine infamy turn not away.


Isa 27:8 In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt [b]debate[/b] with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.

([i]Needs to be read in it's context[/i])

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


[b]H4683[/b]

מצּה

matstsâh

[i]mats-tsaw'[/i]

From [b]H5327[/b]; a [i]quarrel[/i]: - contention, debate, strife.

--------------------------

{[b]H5327[/b]

נצה

nâtsâh

[i]naw-tsaw'[/i]

A primitive root; properly to [i]go forth[/i], that is, (by implication) to [i]be expelled[/i], and (consequently) [i]desolate[/i]; causatively to [i]lay waste[/i]; also (specifically), to [i]quarrel[/i]: - be laid waste, ruinous, strive (together).}

Used in;

Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and [b]debate[/b], and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



[b]G2054[/b]

ἔρις

eris

[i]er'-is[/i]

Of uncertain affinity; a [i]quarrel[/i], that is, (by implication) [i]wrangling[/i]: - contention, debate, strife, variance.


Used in;

Rom 1:29 - 32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, [b]debate[/b], deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/27 12:22Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Bump


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/2/11 3:27Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK

 Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate)

Quote:

EvanSchaible wrote:
With all of the recent chatter concerning Calvinsism and Arminianism, I thought I would write a post concerning the scriptural doctrine of unity. I am neither a follower of Calvin, nor am I a follower of Arminius, but only a ignorant man that seeks to understand the scriptures. So often we can fall into the error on the left hand of leaving all theological and doctrinal study behind us, and we can just as easily fall into error on the right hand and develop an elitist attitude thinking that we have it right, and because of our sound hermanuetic and solid exegesis, we have to prove to everyone else that our theology is the correct system.

Romans chapter one is a searing chapter that pronounces it's woes upon every single man and woman that has every lived as Paul later in the same epistle tell us "all have sinned". While we often expound upon the more prevalent sins mentioned in this chapter, very rarely will anyone mention one particular sin, and when it is mentioned the cry of legalist, and misinterpretation are quickly used as a pacifier for a pricked conscience.

After pronouncing many piercing anathemas, Paul goes on to point out some specific sins when he says that these people are "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers..." Tragically most Christians confidently proclaim this as a description of a unregenerate man, but when the tiny little word "debate" is brought forth as a characteristic of unregeneracy, heels become bruised as many formerly confident Christians lean back on them seeking for some way to justify their insatiable appetite to be right.

The reason, I believe, that debate is herein mentioned is solely this: debate is an utterly selfish practice that seeks to prove itself right, and often holds no regard for the other, with the occasional exception of a mention of "boy I am glad we can debate this and still have unity at the end, even though we disagree". This, to me, is a ludicrous justification for an otherwise sinful practice. Coming from one who used to constantly debate theology, and every time was grieved, in tha back of every mind after a debate concludes is one of two things:

1. Boy I sure wish so-and-so could see that his theology is wrong.

2. Boy I sure wish that so-and-so could see that my point of view is right.

Oh dear brethren, this anti Christ mindset is the hindrance to a heaven born revival. Do you seek proof for that statement? The Moravian revival came when a group of squabbling men came together in unity. I think rather than ruffle our feathers at each other, we should seek God and soar like eagles.

It must be mentioned that reasoning is much different than debate. I can reason with a sinner about the existence of God, or the cross of Christ, but if I find myself debating with them, I stop myself, backtrack to pick up the pieces and start over. Reasoning can often be another mask to endeavor to cover up a sinful contentious spirit, and this too must be guarded against. We have to surrender our intellects to God, and allow Him to shape our understanding, and with this is practiced then no longer will we have divisiveness, but we will be shown to be disciples of Jesus Christ.

If we claim to follow a triune God, then we should, as the body of Christ, be united one to another. Is it not strange to you that many who profess to follow a God that is three and yet one, perfect in unity, are divided? This is not an accurate portrayal of the God we profess to follow, and if it is not soon stopped than the world will continue to scoff and see us as merely a Sunday morning cultural phenomenon, rather than the culture shaping organism that the church is meant to be.

Just a few thoughts on the doctrine of unity.



------------------------------------------------

The Gospel of UNITY

Everyone is looking for peace to make a better world. It is a necessity that has been missing since the beginning of time and has become an indispensable element for our survival. Many think with our uniting together we can have peace in our world. Jesus spoke about peace and said, “My peace I give to you not as the world gives” (John 14:27). His is a peace through trials, an assurance of well-being, not a compromise to bring two sides together that should not be united. His main concern was for the peace we can have with God. As former enemies because sinners we can become reconciled through the blood of the cross (see Col 1:20).

Jeremiah spoke against the prophets of his day who said, “Peace, peace” (Jer 6:14 c/f 8: 11) when there was no peace. Paul wrote of the future when they say, “Peace and safety” (1 Thessalonians 5:3) and sudden destruction will come. We are heading in that direction with lightning speed.

There are some famous and not so famous people who want to see unity become a reality, especially in religious circles. This unity not only affects the Church but politics as well.

The Bible never tells us to make or create unity, but to “keep the unity of the Spirit” (Eph. 4:3), which is something we already have in Christ. Christ prayed for the unity and His prayers are always answered. We don’t have to strive for unity. It is something given by grace through Christ. The Holy Spirit creates this unity. It is the unity of those who are truly born of the Spirit. We are brought into this organic unity by faith and added to the body of Christ 1Cor.12:13. The unity centres around the core beliefs that have always been held by the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures (our Bible) to reveal Christ and true doctrine. Thus His purpose is to cause people to understand what Christ has said and so bring them into unity with the rest of the body of Christ.

Contrast this with the ecumenical concept of bringing together all who name the name of Christ whether they hold to the basic tenets of the faith or not! True unity began on the day of Pentecost when God made a new entity - the Church. Those who believed the gospel were brought into the Church and they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine, in love and fellowship having all things in common. The Church increased daily. By heeding the apostles’ teachings they had unity. So it is unity of the Word of God, which will be our guidance and source of spiritual life. It seems that many believe that the Holy Spirit is not limited to the Christian Church but is found in other religions. As Jude said in verse 17: “But you beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.” He goes on to say that there will be mockers in the last days that cause divisions. How? By not having the Spirit! But they want to make a spiritual union by human reasoning not lead by the Spirit into the truth that Jesus already delivered



_________________
Colin Murray

 2008/2/12 4:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:

murrcolr wrote:

The Gospel of UNITY

Everyone is looking for peace to make a better world. It is a necessity that has been missing since the beginning of time and has become an indispensable element for our survival. Many think with our uniting together we can have peace in our world. Jesus spoke about peace and said, “My peace I give to you not as the world gives” (John 14:27). His is a peace through trials, an assurance of well-being, not a compromise to bring two sides together that should not be united. His main concern was for the peace we can have with God. As former enemies because sinners we can become reconciled through the blood of the cross (see Col 1:20).

Jeremiah spoke against the prophets of his day who said, “Peace, peace” (Jer 6:14 c/f 8: 11) when there was no peace. Paul wrote of the future when they say, “Peace and safety” (1 Thessalonians 5:3) and sudden destruction will come. We are heading in that direction with lightning speed.

There are some famous and not so famous people who want to see unity become a reality, especially in religious circles. This unity not only affects the Church but politics as well.

The Bible never tells us to make or create unity, but to “keep the unity of the Spirit” (Eph. 4:3), which is something we already have in Christ. Christ prayed for the unity and His prayers are always answered. We don’t have to strive for unity. It is something given by grace through Christ. The Holy Spirit creates this unity. It is the unity of those who are truly born of the Spirit. We are brought into this organic unity by faith and added to the body of Christ 1Cor.12:13. The unity centres around the core beliefs that have always been held by the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures (our Bible) to reveal Christ and true doctrine. Thus His purpose is to cause people to understand what Christ has said and so bring them into unity with the rest of the body of Christ.

Contrast this with the ecumenical concept of bringing together all who name the name of Christ whether they hold to the basic tenets of the faith or not! True unity began on the day of Pentecost when God made a new entity - the Church. Those who believed the gospel were brought into the Church and they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine, in love and fellowship having all things in common. The Church increased daily. By heeding the apostles’ teachings they had unity. So it is unity of the Word of God, which will be our guidance and source of spiritual life. It seems that many believe that the Holy Spirit is not limited to the Christian Church but is found in other religions. As Jude said in verse 17: “But you beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.” He goes on to say that there will be mockers in the last days that cause divisions. How? By not having the Spirit! But they want to make a spiritual union by human reasoning not lead by the Spirit into the truth that Jesus already delivered



Sometimes I can only say "Wow".

I woke today with such a heavy burden for the Apostle Paul and all that he went through and Why and even John - what his main point for apologetic defense was - and the verses warning that "false prophets and false teachers would increase in the last days" and thought with a shudder, that we will have it worse than Paul and John in the realm of defending Truth and protecting the Church. This is not child's play. Reading Paul, there were times where I couldn't even quote him, where it came to some of his thoughts on "those who would trouble you".

When truly reading Paul and intensively - I am more amazed at the defense of truth that he went through then being "shipwrecked or even flogged".
It takes more out of one and drains them, having to do what he did to protect the Church doctrinely than what he went through physically. This I know is true. The toll it takes.
And to think that it will only increase in "those days" - actually, these days - just makes me want to go Home and be with the LORD.
I don't fear persecution from the world at all - it is seeing what is happening in the Church that I feel will take me out faster than the world's attacks.
The compromise contrasted by the good fight for the Faith once delivered. That's what made a strong man like Paul weep. Acts 20.

LORD help us.

 2008/2/12 11:25
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Quote:
Bro. Murray said: The Bible never tells us to make or create unity, but to “keep the unity of the Spirit” (Eph. 4:3), which is something we already have in Christ. Christ prayed for the unity and His prayers are always answered. We don’t have to strive for unity. It is something given by grace through Christ. The Holy Spirit creates this unity. It is the unity of those who are truly born of the Spirit. We are brought into this organic unity by faith and added to the body of Christ 1Cor.12:13. The unity centres around the core beliefs that have always been held by the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures (our Bible) to reveal Christ and true doctrine. Thus His purpose is to cause people to understand what Christ has said and so bring them into unity with the rest of the body of Christ.




It is true that syncretism is not unity, neither is ecumenism. On the other hand the Word of God is very clear that indeed unity is something that we are to put forth and “effort” to keep. Your quote from Ephesians 4:3 states “endeavoring”, “being diligent” “eager…
[πουδάζω
spoudazō
spoo-dad'-zo

From G4710; to use speed, that is, to make effort, be prompt or earnest:—do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study]

to maintain, preserve, keep the unity. I have to disagree that it is something that is automatic. If that were so, we would not have to read the assemblies in the early church among those who were apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ having to meet and discuss scripture and come together, and we would not be reading about Paul and Barnabas going separate ways over the issue of John Mark, and the whole context of Paul’s contending for the faith with those precious brothers Peter and Barnabas at Antioch. The scripture in Hebrews 12:14 is oft quoted by those of us who love the doctrine of holiness or sanctification, but the first part of it is quite often overlooked, which says “pursue peace”, “strive for peace”, “follow peace” with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord… and the context that follows is important “looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble and by it many are defiled…


Add to that, that our Lord said, “Blessed are the peacemakers...” As for Christ’s prayers being answered, we can either be a part of that answered prayer or refuse to do what He commands and it not be answered for us as individuals.

I believe I understand your point regarding false teachings and certainly know that there is the “unity of the faith”. However that “unity” is so many times not at all apparent because of the human frailty of miscommunications which will not be cleared up until the adversary that is adept at “garbling the transmissions” is out of the way and we no longer see through a glass darkly… until we know even as we are known.

To contend for the faith as Jude writes is one thing, to be contentious is quite another, and I believe that our brother’s original post addresses that point quite well.


Endeavoring to keep the unity...

Clint





_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/2/12 13:29Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:

broclint wrote:
Quote:


to maintain, preserve, keep the unity. I have to disagree that it is something that is automatic.





Ephesians 4:3

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
being diligent to [b]preserve[/b] the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Through the peace that ties you together, do your best to [b]maintain[/b] the unity that the Spirit gives.

King James Bible
Endeavouring to [b]keep[/b] the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

American Standard Version
giving diligence to [b]keep[/b] the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Bible in Basic English
Taking care to [b]keep[/b] the harmony of the Spirit in the yoke of peace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Careful to [b]keep[/b] the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Darby Bible Translation
using diligence to [b]keep[/b] the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.

English Revised Version
giving diligence to [b]keep[/b] the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Tyndale New Testament
and that ye be diligent to [b]keep[/b] the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace

Keep meaning To cause to remain in a given situation or condition; to maintain unchanged; to hold or preserve in any state

Keep is something you have.

Keep your money in your pocket.

So you could say be diligent to remain in unity in any given situation or condition and to maintain that unity unchanged perserving in any state.

Heb 12:14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:

Or to go one step further remain in unity and follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2008/2/12 14:31Profile





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