| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Sorry for posting this thread. Please forgive me. -Abraham
EDIT: I'm out. |
|  2008/1/25 2:14 | |
| | Re: | | You get rebuked so you quit? Thats not the right attitude brother.
Krispy |
| | 2008/1/25 8:13 | |
| | Re: System of Theology | | Thought I would pop my head in here...
Everyone (whether we want to admit it or not) approaches the bible with some "system of theology. It's called hermeneutics. Some people just like to put a name to their system. (Calvin, Armenius, Palagian, Augistine, etc.) In some ways I can totally respect brothers and sisters who look to those who have gone before us in order to understand the Truth that is written in the bible. At least they are not under the delusion that they have come up with everything themselves.
I do not think Abe is trying to cause division. I think he is trying to get people to think. Are we that insecure in our own beliefs that we cannot read something that may be contrary?
PS:
Quote:
All promises of God, even salvation comes with a condition, i can see it in scripture
This is a perfect example of someone approaching scripture with their own " system of theology". This statement is just not true. If you look at the promise that God gave David, concerning his house, their was no condition. God promised David that He would build him a house and that someone would always reign upon his throne...period...no condition. This is just one example. |
| | 2008/1/25 8:22 | | hmmhmm
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Mahoney wrote:
This is a perfect example of someone approaching scripture with their own " system of theology". This statement is just not true. If you look at the promise that God gave David, concerning his house, their was no condition. God promised David that He would build him a house and that someone would always reign upon his throne...period...no condition. This is just one example.
so can i be saved if i dont repent and dont believe?
or could it be right to say if you want to be saved the conditions are faith and repentance?
or can we be saved without them?
every promise has a condition, you read a promise in the bible, you can in almost every verse before or after find a condition to that promise. Go through the NT and see for yourself
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| | 2008/1/25 8:40 | Profile | MikeH
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Posts: 116
| | Re: The Arminian 'gospel'? (Spurgeon) | | Abe_Juliot quoted Quote:
The Arminian 'gospel'?
Spurgeon, "The Two Effects of the Gospel"
I have immense regard for Spurgeon. But perhaps one of the reasons he develops these ideas is that, at least in this passage, he demonstrates a story book picture of hell rather than a biblical one.
Phrases like "he would hold [that gem] up", "And how would Satan chuckle", "And plunging him in the waves of hell", and "says Satan with a malignant joy". I do not see Satan chuckling or having joy, for it is described as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. The scripture says, [color=009900]Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [b]shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/b][/color] And a few others are thrown in, including sadly, those who have rejected Christ, [color=009900]Rev 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/color]
The worldly view is that hell will be a place where the Devil torments lost souls. This is so far from the truth that it deceives many. But rather it is a place that all who are lost, including the devil will be tormented together. And as important, if not more so, it is a place that the Lord manages! For Revelation shows earlier that [color=009900]Rev 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone [b]in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:[/b][/color] It is fearful to think that the Lord will be watching what goes on there forever :-( :-o :-? :-(
If we begin to realise that hell (and technically, I mean the lake of fire at this stage) is somewhere where Christ deliberately places people and others, we might be less surprised that it might include those that at one time had a faith in Him, which some of the parable quoted seem to imply. When Spurgeon states: Quote:
I suppose that if one believer were to be in hell, Christ himself would not long stay in heaven, but would cry, "To the rescue!"
This makes no sense, because those there will only be those that Christ has choosen to put (or throw) there!!!
I will finish with a verse which I believe sets the right tone; [color=009900]2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to [b]make your calling and election sure[/b]: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:[/color] Better to have made absolutely certain you, and others, will not be there, than take a risk with a doctrine, that if it is wrong, could have eternal and devastating consequences.
Kind regards
Mike |
| | 2008/1/25 8:41 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
or could it be right to say if you want to be saved the conditions are faith and repentance?
And again, another example of a "system of theology"
We both agree that justification absolutley includes faith and repentance.
Your system of theology categorizes faith and repentence as "conditions" of Salvation.
The system that I hold to categorizes faith and repentence as "fruit" of the Gospel.
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"...the Gospel.
"It is the goodness (the Gospel) of God that leads man to repentence. |
| | 2008/1/25 8:57 | | sermonindex
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Online! | | | 2008/1/25 9:00 | Profile | hmmhmm
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Posts: 4994
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Mahoney wrote:
Quote:
or could it be right to say if you want to be saved the conditions are faith and repentance?
And again, another example of a "system of theology"
We both agree that justification absolutley includes faith and repentance.
Your system of theology categorizes faith and repentence as "conditions" of Salvation.
The system that I hold to categorizes faith and repentence as "fruit" of the Gospel.
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"...the Gospel.
"It is the goodness (the Gospel) of God that leads man to repentence.
well we may call it different, and as for a system i dont know :-)
my system is quite messed up according to all the other ones.... i see truths in scripture from calvin and arminus and some others, and sometimes i think Wesley is closest to the truth...and sometimes i just scratch my head and says "thou knowest all things"
and i say as Job
Job 40:3-5 Then Job replied to the LORD, "I am nothing--how could I ever find the answers? I will put my hand over my mouth in silence. I have said too much already. I have nothing more to say." ~ NLT
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| | 2008/1/25 9:02 | Profile | whyme
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| | Re: | | For those of you who have any interest, read or listen to the sermons of Whitfield, Spurgeon, Piper, Washer. These men aren't just theologians, they were and are evangelists and their messages are literally bathed in the doctrines of grace. It is very easy to categorize those doctrines as "Calvinism" and then dismiss them as the worship of a person or a doctrinal camp. That would be wrong. The right criticism is if a doctrine becomes an end of itself and not the means to an end, which is knowing God, then we need to reassess what we are doing. If Abe or any other brother wants us to know God better by sharing truth ( or at least the truth he believes ) then he should be free to share it. Many of those on this site are more concerned with attacking the doctrines by attacking the man or attacking some other historical figure. ( they have a phrase for that in debate ) For example, if someone says that a believer has eternal security which is an extremely important doctrine ( either way ) then invariably the thread degenerates to a statement that Calvinists are cold and nonevangelistic and John Calvin murdered Servetes (sp?). If someone says that God's grace overcomes a person's natural enmity with God, then the thread invariable degenerates to a statement that the God who would do that is a monster and believers are robots if that is true.
I have been guilty at times of intellectual Calvinism and that is wrong. I'm sure there are other believers like me who've made that mistake by focusing too much on a doctrine. It works both ways though, the anger expressed by some at the presentation of a truth that violates man's will is equally convicting. If Hmmmm or anyone else thinks God's grace in salvation is conditional then he should be entilted to present that position without fear that he will be ostracized or called out for presenting a "divisive" issue. Unity is not agreement on the issues. Unity is a devotion and single heartededness to Christ. We can disagree and still have unity. Unity does not require us to avoid the issues, unity in love determines how we react to the issues.
Abe, I happen to agree with your theology. We all could use self examination to make sure we're not presenting truth to win an argument with men. Nonetheless, I appreciate your apparent sincere desire to present God in His glory the way you see Him in Scripture. Thank you and not just because I agree with you position. |
| | 2008/1/25 9:10 | Profile | tjservant
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Unity does not require us to avoid the issues, unity in love determines how we react to the issues.
Good word brother. I have learned a lot over the last few days by reading some outstanding posts about Cal. and Arm.
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| | 2008/1/25 9:22 | Profile |
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