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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

This article seems to be intentionally painting a very poor picture of “Christians” and their hate filled intolerant ways.

Satanic propaganda.


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TJ

 2008/1/23 9:27Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

The problem of how to handle discipline will always be controversial. From a spiritual standpoint, leaving it up to a congregation invites complacency and confusion; from a practical standpoint leaving it up to a single man invites corruption and cruelty.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2008/1/23 9:41Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37636
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Half an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff's officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs.


This article is not from God's perspective but a persons who's desire is to make church discipline look bad. These are erroneous cases of church discipline and I have been involved with ones almost as bad myself. Church discipline is not the pastor wanting to be respected (that will be gained by his godly life). Church discipline is counseling and if necessary shunning from the fellowship those that are in willful sin.

This is totally biblical and needs to be practiced again,


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2008/1/23 9:45Profile









 Re:

I was just gonna say... the agenda behind the article is to sensationalize this and make it look bad. Thats obvious.

Church discipline is important, scriptural and much needed. But it must be done properly and in order, and can never be abusive. In fact, it should be loving.

I'm not sure that churches should call the sheriff tho... that seems a bit extreme. I'm totally against letting the government get a foot in the door, that can be very dangerous to our freedoms. We should not involve the government in matters of church policy (as long as nothing illegal is going on). But then, I dont know the situation. Who's to say this lady wasnt being disruptive? If she was, then yes, call the authorities. If not... dont think it should be taken to that extreme.

Krispy

 2008/1/23 10:26









 Re:

Quote:
I'm convinced that churches do need to discipline their members, but I think that some pastors and churches abuse that discipline

I agree, I've seen to much of this and it's sickening.

I want to bring something to the table in regards to this. Who does Church disciplining anyway? Is it really the job of the Pastor to monitor who's sinning and who's not? Sin's that are evident in someone's life can be easily monitored, but what do you do with sins of the heart. The kind that if you just look upon a woman to lust, you've [b]ALREADY[/b]committed adultery in your heart.

Pastors may as well throw everyone out of the church including himself because everyone is guilty.

I am for discipline, correction and rebukes, but where do we draw the line?

Is this another form of legalism?

 2008/1/23 14:43









 Re:

Here is a two part message series on church discipline by Jeff Noblit (Pastor of Muscle Shoals Bible Baptist Church):

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15355&commentView=itemComments]Part 1[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15356&commentView=itemComments]Part 2[/url]

 2008/1/23 15:36
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Did anyone else find that this old woman's words and attitude were willful, stubborn and proud? Even after being asked to leave she didn't change her attitude but became even more flagrant with her defiance.

If this was truly an aged woman of God, she would submit for the sake of peace 1 Peter 5:5b says '[b]All of you[/b], clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."' Earlier in 1 Peter it say 'all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brother, be compassionate and humble.' (1 Pet 3:8) This woman doesn't appear to want to be in harmony with her church leadership. Peter then goes on to quote from Psalm 34 and encourages us to 'Seek Peace.'

Now I don't believe the church is totally faultless. They didn't use wisdom in dealing with this woman -they went to extreme measures to show her the error of her attitude and divisive spirit. However I don't believe they should have brought the police into a church matter.

Quote:
1 Corinthians 6:1-8
1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.



I myself have been threatened with church discipline on one occasion, even though in retrospect I believe my leaders were out of line, I can see that there was fault with my attitude and heart. But I repented before my leaders of what I had done and submitted to their authority. I believe that I am responsible for my own actions, even if my leaders were wrong in the way they went about what they had to do, I needed to make the proper choice for the moment -I chose to do what was necessary to restore harmony and seek peace, I submitted, I have no regrets.


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Ian Smith

 2008/1/23 15:45Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Why do you not rather suffer loss?

Quote:
Did anyone else find that this old woman's words and attitude were willful, stubborn and proud? Even after being asked to leave she didn't change her attitude but became even more flagrant with her defiance.



Yes.

Quite a bit that is troublesome with this ... everything from tale-bearing to not having all the facts to begin with ... makes the whole thing rather difficult to respond to ...


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Mike Balog

 2008/1/23 16:12Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re: Why do you not rather suffer loss?

Did a quick search for the Pastor's name and found this note in a Christian college alumni newsletter.

Quote:
Jason Burrick
Pastor of the Allen Baptist Church in Allen, Michigan
Our graduate Jason Burrick became the pastor of the Allen Baptist Church in Allen, Michigan, on September 10, 2005. The church then had a membership of 13 people. The town of Allen has a total population of 220 people with about 70,000 people in the surrounding area.
On November 6, 2005, the Allen Baptist Church had 91 in attendance with 25 souls saved for the week. In the nine weeks that Jason Burrick has been the pastor, they have had over 50 visitors and 43 people saved.

Sounds to me like revival, or at least a bit of fresh wind. If these numbers are true, and the fruit is lasting, this man certainly has a annointing. He attended Hyles-Anderson College, a small Christian college in Indiana - http://www.hylesanderson.com


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Ian Smith

 2008/1/23 16:58Profile









 Re: Banned from Church

Quote:
Half an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff's officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs.

Friends and family describe her as a generous woman who helped pay the electricity bill for Allen Baptist, in Allen, Mich., when funds were low, gave the church $1,200 after she sold her van, and even cut the church's lawn on occasion. She has requested an engraved image of the church on her tombstone.


[b]Mrs. Caskey asked him to appoint a board of deacons to help govern the church, a tradition [u]outlined in the church's charter.[/u][/b]

In April 2006, Mrs. Caskey received a stern letter from Mr. Burrick. "This church will not tolerate this spirit of cancer and discord that you would like to spread," it said. Mrs. Caskey, along with Mr. and Mrs. Church, continued to insist that the pastor follow the church's constitution. In August, she received a letter from Mr. Burrick that said her failure to repent had led to her removal. It also said he would not write her a transfer letter enabling her to join another church, a requirement in many Baptist congregations, until she had "made things right here at Allen Baptist."

Mrs. Caskey went back to the church about a month after her arrest, shortly after the county prosecutor threw out the trespassing charge.

More than a dozen supporters gathered outside, some with signs that read "What Would Jesus Do?"

Once again, Mrs. Caskey was escorted out by a state trooper and taken to jail, where she posted the $62 bail and was released.

After that, the county prosecutor dismissed the charge and told county law enforcement not to arrest her again unless she was creating a disturbance.



We used to call this type Pastoring "shepherding movements".


In any denomination, a Church's Charter cannot be undone by a pastor.

This is not the definition of a shepherd of His Sheep.


When people are not allowed to "test all things" - even the Pastor - and their Bibles, about Elders and Deacons - that is called "shepherding".

No office in the church is above the Bible, the denomination's or church's Charter or beyond being questioned if their actions are tyranical and using "the secular law" in a case like this is total unscriptural Lunacy.

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

 2008/1/23 17:13





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