If the article is true, it's true. If it's a lie, then it's a lie. Either way, what do you want to do about it? All you can do is pray. If it's true, the Bible says these things are to be expected in the last days. Nothing will stop it. If it's a lie, then nothing will come of it.
It seems wasteful to put time or energy into it, especially if you aren't in prayer about it to begin with. If it's just, "Ooh! Look what's in the news!" then it's not productive and our time is better spent on more meaningful things.
| 2008/1/22 19:20||Profile|
Dear brother Chris, as I was meditating on what you said, I was reminded of the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16110&forum=40]Testimony Of Richard Wurmbrand (Interview)[/url], and particularly these words:
[color=000066][b]Reverend Wurmbrand: [/b][/color]Just I didn't finish this question.
Our Government doesn't mind old women coming to church, but our childhood, our youth is poisoned with atheism. We are not allowed to counteract, and what bitter fruits will come out of this seed nobody can know.
[b]Now you have asked another question, do we have open churches in Rumania?[/b] If somebody comes to Rumania - it is another situation in Russia - if somebody comes to Rumania, he is really impressed.
The Orthodox liturgy is something very beautiful. It is grand. And if you come in Rumania you see thousands of churches open, liturgies, sermons, many people in the church. And I have spoken with Americans who have been there and have told me, "I was very impressed." [b][u]And now there is really a certain religious liberty. In Rumania you are allowed to say as much as you like that God is good. You are not allowed to say that the Devil is bad. St. John the Baptist could have saved his life if he had said: "Repent because the kingdom of heaven is near." Nobody would have touched him. He was touched when he said, "You, Herod, are bad."
If Christ would have delivered a thousand "Sermons on the Mount" they would not have crucified Him. They crucified Him when He said, "You vipers," then He was crucified. [/u]
In Rumania you can say God is good but you can't say "communism is cruel, they commit atrocities, it is a crime to poison children with atheism." [/b] If you do this you go to prison. There are many priests, rabbis, and pastors who compromise and don't put the dot on the "I." There exists the real church and the real religion and that which compromises.
Brother, do you feel in your spirit that these things in one or another form are coming or already here, in America, Macedonia, Sweden, Europe?
I feel it strongly, and can see them already fulfilling in some of our brothers around the world. And this feeling has been shared by many godly brothers and sisters that I have been talked, beginning from my own church and pastor and continuing with brothers and sisters from all over the world.
I am not interested what this or that organization will do to the sovereignty of this or that nation. I am not interested in politics (I was once before 8-9 years). I don't believe that this our job as christians.
But my spirit cannot ignore watching the preparation of 'the kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.' and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85ke_Green]the preparation of the[/url] 'great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.'
And certainly I don't believe that we should be indifferent of what is going on around us. We must not. We have commandments to be not. 'And when you will see...'
Brother, how your spirit is reacting and feeling on these matters?
Is the testimony of the spirit in my heart and the heart of many brothers and sisters false and superficies, or maybe is it something that the Spirit is trying to move and say to us? Where ever in the world we are.
| 2008/1/22 20:03||Profile|
Dear brother Kire, thank you for writting to me.
Brother I believe there is a great difference between God speaking through men and [b]men making accusations on their own[/b].
My concern, for us here, is what guilt we may bring upon ourselves and others by doing so.
Take a pillow, cut it open.
Scatter the feathers throughout the city that you live in.
Try to collect those feathers one year later.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2008/1/22 20:10||Profile|
I debated even replying to this thread again. The Community Rules for this forum are abundantly clear: Such discussions are not allowed. I will cut and paste the rules along with a link, and include this at the bottom of this post. Please understand that this is not meant as an attack on any person, but a refutation of the underlying notions presented in this post and conspiracy theory.
You see Chris, this is where you do error. You can give your reasons why you may think parts of this article are not true, but that would only be your opinion based on your own biases.
Do you see the problem with this statement? This is where you THINK that I do error. It would be very helpful if we could add such a word from time to time. In addition, I could give my reasons as to why I believe that many parts of this article are not true (especially the underlying accusation of this conspiracy theory), and instead of accusing me of basing an opinion upon my own biases, such reasons could and should be based upon fact. Let me make this clear: I hold no bias in regard to this organization. In fact, I really dont think or care much for this organization at all. However, I do hold a very certain bias for the [u]truth[/u].
I could care less about the accusation that Rick Warren is a member (as has been alleged). Who cares? I cant stand that mans doctrinal views, but that doesnt necessarily make this organization [i]sinister[/i] or guilty of trying to bring about a one world government for the Antichrist. Leonard Ravenhill might actually have had a membership with the National Geographic Magazine (well, at least he had several copies in his house). Does that make such an organization holy?!? I wouldnt think so. So why are we spreading allegations about this organization based upon the membership or particular claims of single individuals?
Bias? The only reason I ever approached these accusations is that I actually know individuals within the organization, and they have NEVER desired a one world government. As a graduate student, I attended CFR meetings (which were highly educational into what the organization is really all about). I also interviewed some of the more sinister members of this organization. Recently, I actually spoke to two members of the CFR about the accusations made by this conspiracy (both who are very close friends of mine). Both of them were surprisingly aware of the various conspiracy theories. You know what they said? They said that these notions are simply the notions of some ignorant gossips that are searching under every pencil sharpener to find evidence of a menacing conspiracy. One of these men told me that no matter how many statements are made to refute those allegations, there will always be people around who willingly believe a lie. Ouch! This didnt come from a believer. This came from a college professor who is a member of the organizational think tank. Pastorfrin, the underlying accusation that this article is trying to extend is either [u]truth[/u] or it is a [u]lie[/u]. The article does not make such a distinction. It is presented as truth.
There is no difference in the author of this article saying this is true and you saying it is false, though I would tend to lean toward some of these authors with their years of research than your simple I interviewed some of these people and had lunch with them
Do you honestly think that is what I was doing? Did you truly read any of my posts, or do you really believe such a remark? In the last thread about the CFR, I did my best to question whether there is any credible basis upon which to base this CONSPIRACY THEORY (for this is exactly what it is). This theory alleges that the CFR is a sinister organization trying to secretly exert control upon the world and subjugate the United States to a one world government. It also alleges that the CFR is effectively in control of national governments and multinational corporations. This is evidenced in the article as:
Quote: Evidence? What evidence? No one has presented any plausible evidence that states such a notion! While I believe that a one world government (or something that resembles such a thing) is likely to come about eventually, it is disingenuous to point the finger of conspiracy at a loose organization like this. The CFR is simply a think tank whose only goal (according to its website, its mission statement, individuals involved, etc
) is to gather various opinions about international relations (particularly how such policy deals with the United States) and present these various, independent ideas in a forum and peer-reviewed journal. No one member controls the organization. Yet the conspiracy theories abound!
If one group is effectively in control of national governments and multinational corporations; promotes world government through control of media, foundation grants, and education; and controls and guides the issues of the day; then they control most options available. The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), and the financial powers behind it, have done all these things, and promote the "New World Order", as they have for over seventy years.
The CFR consists of liberals, conservatives, and independents. There are Democrats, Republicans, Greens, and independents. It consists of politicians, business leaders and famous people. There are bound to be a few weirdoes who are a part of this organizational think tank. Ive thought about how such conspiracies are alleged because of the opinions or thoughts of a single member (or even a small group of members). It would be like judging SermonIndex because of a few weird ideas expressed in the forums. But no one would argue that SI is sinister, because we fully understand the purpose of this ministry. Why do we neglect to consider the[url=http://www.cfr.org/about/mission.html] Mission Statement[/url] of the Council on Foreign Relations? This statement reflects what they are in their meetings a group of individuals from various backgrounds and with diverse opinions who meet to discuss the state of world affairs and debate possible solutions. In other words, they are what they say they are (and not what the conspiracy theorists allege). They are simply a think tank.
At any rate you are right, it is pointless to go round and round and accomplish no good and possibly ill feelings, which this is not worth.
Then why did you post the article? Dont you see how the opinions of the individual who wrote this article (who failed to cite sources, other than a general bibliography of works that he may or may not have referenced within this article) was interlaced with supposed fact? Could this somehow be interpreted as another person spreading this conspiracy theory? If you really want to research this organization they why have you not communicated with anyone from the organization itself? Why do people rely primarily on articles that have already concluded an opinion about a conspiracy theory? Why was there no disclaimer (except to keep on believing the way you believe) if the article was simply meant for discussion rather than influence?
Thus, I simply submitted the article for consideration, careful thought. Which could be a benefit to some, as we see the day approaching.
Is that what you have done? Or have you actually helped to spread a rumor and conspiracy theory on a website that discourages this? Im certainly not going to accuse you or question your own motives, but do you see how this could be interpreted by others who just happen upon this thread? What does this say about these forums or the focus of this ministry? Yes, the day of Christ is approaching. Why should we fear? If we know and walk with the Lord, then what is there to fear? We can look with excitement for our approaching King! We can even point to signs of the end (including the possibility of a one world government or confederation of governments). But should we spread rumors about organizations? Is that what the Lord told us to do when he said that we should watch? All that I am saying is that if we are going to spread a rumor or conspiracy theory, let us at least make certain that our facts are straight. In this instance, what evidence has ever been presented that would lead us to believe that this organization is at work to create a one world government for the Antichrist (or in control of governments and multinational corporations)? What if, by concentrating on a single organization or two, we are actually diverting attention from what we should be looking at? What if we are polluting the pure focus of this website by introducing the fogs of rumor?
[b][u]Conspiracy and Conspiracy Theory[/u][/b]*
We believe there is certainly a conspiracy afoot, that which is present since the fall of mankind in their enmity with God. What other websites or ministries may have of a variety of present theory as it relates to what the governments of the world are doing is too much in dispute to be presented here. The New World Order and One Government system is understood in a variety of fashion. What we will not allow is unscrupulous and un-scriptural notions and ideals to foster fear and paranoia to the saints. Our trust and yours should be placed firmly in God, not in the conspiracy of the world, the flesh or the devil. We will monitor these things in our best discretion but do not bring in ministries or other agendas devoted to these mandates.
*Taken from the SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules
| 2008/1/23 11:14||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
I debated even replying to this thread again. The Community Rules for this forum are abundantly clear: Such discussions are not allowed. I will cut and paste the rules along with a link, and include this at the bottom of this post.
Thank you brother Chris,
I think there is some true in these things but to protect people from useless aimless imaging of what is possible and happening is not worthwhile. It is much better to rest and put our minds on what is true and absolute ie the Scriptures.
We all agree this whole world is under the sway of the wicked one! So why try to figure out how it is, lets just believe it is.
I am [b]locking[/b] this thread.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2008/1/23 11:21||Profile|