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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Calvinism—Arminianism, Which?

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 Re: Calvinism—Arminianism, Which?

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for your reply. You take care before that anaesthesia wears off, or you'll be smarting more than necessary! And don't try to be a hero and do without analgesia. Just give yourself 2 or 3 more days of pain relief - maybe 4 or 5 - and it will make for a much happier few days. So... needless to say, I still have (as you may guess) difficulties with the way you tie scripture down.

In your earlier reply you said something I just want to comment upon, not to attempt to negate its place in the life of the believer - even the Calvinist believer ;-) - but that it need not be confined to the Calvinist believer.

Unconditional Election is the fact that as Scripture teaches that God elected individuals without any regard to any conditions deserving of salvation in them.

My comment is, that whether a person finds themselves believing or not, we were all the same before [i]that[/i] were we not? Iow, that no-one 'deserves' to be saved.

Going back to John 10:26, I would like to bring into play some verses in John 6. I'm using Young partly for variety and partly because I think it's as safe a translation as the KJV.

The thing I want to point out is the similarity between what you're saying, and vv 37 - 40. But, if you look at v 36, you see "[u]ye also have [b]seen[/b] me[/u], and ye believe not".

[color=0000FF]35 And Jesus said to them, `I am the bread of the life; he who is coming unto me may not hunger, and he who is believing in me may not thirst--at any time;
36 but I said to you, that ye also have seen me, and ye believe not;
37 all that the Father doth give to me will come unto me; and him who is coming unto me, I may in no wise cast without,
38 because I have come down out of the heaven, not that I may do my will, but the will of Him who sent me.
39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;
40 and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.' [/color]

Now, if you look again at v 40, you'll note the same pattern of words "that every one who is beholding the Son".... pause for thought.... is 'beholding' the same as 'see' in v 36 ....? moving on .... [u]"and is believing in him"[/u] (v 40) "may have life age-during".

Now, going back to John 10, I'll use Young to quote again:

[color=0000FF] 9 I am the door, [u]through me if any one may come in[/u], he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture. [/color]

It appears there is still the necessity of overcoming the 'if', in order to be saved. This is not something the Shepherd did for the sheep. How can He? He Himself is the Door. He cannot 'come in' 'through' it on their behalf.

His most helpful action on our behalf was to die for us.

Thus, when you quote John 10:26 which contains the 'because', as if that has been [i][b]God's decision[/i][/b], rather than His ratification of the [u]un[/u]believer's [u]decision[/u] .... I find that ..... difficult to 'see'.

 2008/1/25 18:19

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


Thus, when you quote John 10:26 which contains the 'because', as if that has been God's decision, rather than His ratification of the unbeliever's decision .... I find that ..... difficult to 'see'.

See I look at it through the lens of what Jesus said in John 6:44- No man can come to me unless the Father which sent me draws him.

Also understanding that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, it can be safely assumed that anyone who is drawn to "the door" is made willing and able to do so.

I am beginning to think that our whole discussion really centers on how we think of original sin, and its effects on man.

Oh yeah, I didn't want you to think that I wrote off or glamorized the early Roman Catholic Church, for I know that there were many prior to Luther who attempted reform as well, like Hus, Tyndale, and Wycliffe.

I also like how you use the Tyndale version a lot, I have a copy as well, and love it! Just wish I could get a leather cover for it.

God's grace to you dear sister.

patrick heaviside

 2008/1/25 18:31Profile

Joined: 2007/4/17
Posts: 299


Brother, I apologise for having said that we are all sheep. I do not know quite well the difference between a sheep or a goat or a lamb. To me they are all very similar. What I ment to say with that we are all like sheep was that we all follow somone. We ither follow the Christ, or we follow The Devil. Again I apologise, you are right, in the final day the goats will be separated form the Lambs as Mathew 25:33 clearly tells us.

Brother do you remember that parable Jesus gave of the 100 sheep, how one of them was lost, and the sheeperd went everywhere to find it, and once he found it he carried it to join the rest of his flock.

13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.

14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Mathew 18.

Here it says that your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost, refering to all men.

Brother, I cannot accept that God would only choose sertein persons to come to repentance and the rest he gives no chance to come to know the wonderful saviour. I cannot accept it because as I see Scripture that thought is clashes agains other parts of The Holly Bible. Brother, to say that would make God a very Unjust God, A Racist God, a God of no mercy. And does not scripture it self say: Shall not the Jude of all the Earth do right. Genesis 18:25.

Well brother, I know that God has translated me from the Kingdoom of Darkness to the Kingdoom of Light and righteousness. I was once a Goat, now I am a Sheep. Praise God for all eternity.

Love In Christ


 2008/1/25 18:43Profile

 Re: Calvinism—Arminianism, Which?

LiveforGod, you are welcome. :-)

Thanks for your reply, Patrick. Before I decide whether to discuss the tenets of Calvinism any further, please would you explain how a Calvinist explains the requirements of Heb 11:6, especially in the context of those OT saints [u]who believed[/u] - when manifestly they were not 'regenerate'.

[color=0000FF]5 By faith Enoch was translated--not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to--that he had pleased God well,
6 and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth [u]him who is coming to God to believe that He is[/u], and to those [u]seeking[/u] Him He becometh a rewarder. [/color]

 2008/1/25 20:20

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