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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 6 Literal Days or Millions of Years?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Jeremy

Quote:
This doesn't have to mean that he was going to die that very day, but that from the day that he first ate from the forbidden fruit death became certain.



I think I would have to disagree with you here. Physical death is the ongoing consequence of the Death that Adam plunged our race into. I think he DID die, right then; and Eve died with him. It was to Adam that God had said 'thou shalt die' and although Eve's sin did not spread Adam, Adam's did spread to Eve, and the whole human race in that moment. In the moment of Adam's disobedience Sin entered into the world, and Death spread to the whole race. (Rom 5:12ff) It is because this Death has taken place that people whose sins were not reckoned nevertheless died physically; from Adam to Moses. They did not sin 'after the similitude of Adam's transgression' nor was the sin 'reckonable' during the time before the Law; nevertheless they people did die physically because as a direct consequence of The Death that spread to all men, when The Sin entered the world through Adam.

I have tried to develop this thought elsewhere. Please see Chapter 2: Death.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/6/29 13:39Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


Beloved,

I've been meditating the past two days about the terms of endearment Christ sometimes calls us like "beloved", and "little children", and just being baptised in the emotion that comes over me when I do ... Isn't it amazing that we're so loved both personally and collectively by the Creator of the universe, "Lord who am I (are we) that you are mindful of me (us)" ...

Anyhow, you may find this link interesting in light of our discussion ...

AFTER THE FLOOD:
http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/after/
http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/after/contents.htm

 2004/6/29 13:53Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Philo,

Very interesting. I read the first part of your article and enjoyed it. I would have read on but I have to go to work :-( .

Would I have been more correct in saying that Adam did die spiritually and began to die physically? Or was his physical death immediate in the sense that he became mortal?

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/6/29 14:18Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Would I have been more correct in saying that Adam did die spiritually and began to die physically? Or was his physical death immediate in the sense that he became mortal?


Hi Jeremy
I think he began to die physically from the moment he died spiritually. After natural death, the processes of death set in; decay putrification. I think after Adam's spiritual death the processes of that death set in.

It is interesting that Romans regards the Death that accompanied Sin into the human race as a Reign rather than a crisis event. I think this is significant. This Death is not the absence of life, but the presence of a destructive dynamic continually energised an alien spirit.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:1-3 KJV) shows that this death is dead but won't lie down. ;-)

This is Death walking and working. I note that Paul draws attention to this state as 'in time past'.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/6/30 4:16Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 The world that has been pulled over our eyes...

Hello all!

First off, welcome to you “Soulsrus”, it is great to have your words on the forum. I agree with you about the spiritual significance of the story of the original sin. This is debate that has a life of its own and I would like to here more of your views on it but, we should probably continue it on a different thread so as not to contaminate this thread. Look for the one titled “original sin”

Now then, I hope you will all bear with me while I make a very carnal illustration. If any of you have watched “The Matrix”, you will know about the “system”. The question was asked, “What is the Matrix?”- The world that has been pulled over you eyes to blind you from the truth.

With this in mind, let us go back to the story of creation. In the beginning, in the very beginning, was God; omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal; the one that is He- God. He existed outside the confines of time. He decided to create an offspring after his own likeness, for the purposes of fellowship. The design vessel in which this fellowship would occur was the earth as it was. I say, “as it was” because after the original sin something happened to the entire creation: Romans8 20For the creation was R374 subjected to futility, R375 not willingly, but because R376 of Him who subjected it, in F145 hope 21 that the R377 creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans R378 and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

In the beginning, the physical world and the spiritual world communed in harmony. I believe that if Adam had not eaten the fruit, he would have lived forever, that is to say- he would have been eternal. Continuing without interruption, perpetual man would have been as God, existing outside the confines of finite time. The very concept of time is existence in which we now live breath and have our being. Everything we have ever met in this world has an end. I say, “this world”, again because the world is not as was in the beginning. You just have to look at the story of Adam and Eve; there were, in the original creation trees with both physical and spiritual attributes, that is, the tree of life and that of knowledge. Such things simply do not exist in this world. The world that has been pulled over our eyes to blind us from the truth.

When the world was made, time as we know it today (24hours) was as much of a paradox as the concept of eternity is for us today. What is one day in eternity? Light has its reign in the state of day. When darkness reigns it is night, it is a period in which God does not work for a time. When God is at work it is day, he is the true light. (I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work John9:4). Again, I point to the spiritual significance of the story of creation. This is something our “literal” eyes do not always see. I believe, that the six days of creation were not six days as we know them today, that is not to say that I believe it was millions of years either. Time is not the issue here. Time is a concept of the world as it is today, not as it was in the beginning.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/30 10:29Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: 6 Literal Days or Millions of Years?

I gigure it was literal days, jus that literal days for God can be a long or as short as He wishes coz time is His toy. I think as humans living in a realm where everything is limited, the task of grasping a God who's power knows no limits is impossible, hence the need for faith. our intelect can take us so far in understanding God, faith takes us the rest of the way. My faith says it was 6 days whether it was or not is of no consequence, it has been done already, let's jus enjoy it!


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Farai Bamu

 2004/6/30 12:30Profile
Chancellor
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Joined: 2004/7/13
Posts: 19


 Re: 6 Literal Days or Millions of Years?

There's an excellent book by Ken Ham (of Answers In Genesis) titled [u]Why Won't They Listen?[/u] It explains why Christians must believe in the literal creation account as found in Genesis or all of the rest of the Bible's primary truths (the fall, the flood, the Law, the atonement, the resurrection, Jesus' return, etc.) have no foundational basis. There is no place for the marrying of God's word with that wicked worldly philosophy called "evolution."


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Chancellor Carlyle Roberts, II

 2004/7/13 23:12Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I came across this the other day when reading the biography of Campbell Morgan. It was part of one of the tributes at the Memorial Service on May 28th, 1945. It came from John Hutton, a lifelong friend and colabourer...

"Morgan was content with the Bible's 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.' If anyone should have claimed for time a million years... a hundred million years or even of light years, I believe my old friend with a gay voice would have said, 'Take your time and welcome! So long as you leave God where the Bible places Him, at the beginning'.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/15 6:09Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

I've mentioned this quote in another "creation" forum, but here goes again.

Quote:

"I'd rather believe that it took six days because it stretches my faith more." - Anonymus


:-)


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/7/15 7:28Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
"I'd rather believe that it took six days because it stretches my faith more." - Anonymus



Faith is based on revelation, trust without revelation is superstitiion. There is now virtue in 'stretched faith' unless it is God who is stretching it.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/15 10:34Profile





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