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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Holiness Imputed? "In Christ" Phraseology

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Amen, RoaringLamb!!! Amen, amen, amen!!!

If Christ's righteousness, holiness, and perfection be not imparted to us by faith, then the Word of God is a liar and there are none that be saved, no not one! If holiness is by observance of the deeds of the Law, then holiness is impossible and none shall ever see God. Holiness must be the fruit of the Spirit, the result of the new nature imparted to us by God received at the new birth. It ever remains that the flesh is still there in regenerate children of God which retains the principle of the fallen nature, which is why the flesh must be crucified and sin must be ever mortified as we take up our cross and walk by faith every day. Anybody that deludes themselves into believing that the sinful nature of the flesh is totally eradicated and the inward pull toward sin are completely gone forever are duping themselves into a fool's paradise! And such won't be able to last in such a duped state for very long until they soon realize there's a monster within (the flesh) that seeks to regain the throne that it lost when it was kicked off when Christ came into the heart and gave it the boot!

Justification is BY FAITH, not BY WORKS!!!
Sanctification is BY FAITH, not BY WORKS!!!
Works are the FRUIT, not the CONDITION, of justification and sanctification!!!

I do say that a born again child of God does not practice sin, but lives a life pleasing to God and has everyday conduct that is predominately characteristic of the Spirit and nature of Christ, with practical righteousness by deeds before God. But our sanctification is not conditional upon these deeds of righteousness, it is conditional upon faith alone. And true faith will produce righteousness in deed.

Anyone who trusts in his own works, and looks within to the flesh for their holiness is an abomination to God in such a state! I tell you, a filthy stench in the nostrils of God is the one who offers up the false fire of a fleshly holiness. "In me and my flesh is every good thing" is damnable heresy!

I dare, I utterly dare such a one who thinks their flesh is inherently holy in and of itself to try to vaunt themselves before the Holy Great White Throne in such a state and try to stand on their own two feet and tell God that their flesh is now holy! I tell, OH I tell you with a mighty voice of compassion, they will CRY, CRY, CRY: [i]WOE IS ME I AM UNDONE, I AM A MAN OF UNCLEAN LIPS!!!!!!!![/i]

I am not saying that this article teaches all this. But I see in this article little possible and subtle *hints* toward sinless perfection. Giancarlo, have you repented of that heresy??? -honesly, I am asking, because I have a burden over this.

And another question for you Giancarlo: Do you say that holiness is conditional upon obedience to the Law? [yes or no]


 2008/1/27 19:10

Joined: 2006/3/5
Posts: 29
"No Certain dwellingplace"



The glaring assumptions, harsh accusations, and the blatant questions that are obviously leading are quite grieving. It is quite sad the recent campaign you have set up against holiness, and specifically GianCarlo, with a gross misinterpretation and misunderstanding of his position. I hold similar views, but you never come against my articles, why is that? You have become very divisive lately dear brother.

You're post seems more like a challenge than a humble and honest plea, or even honest questions. I hope GianCarlo does not reply to it, as it is quite obvious you're agenda.

Sorry brother, but it needed to be said.

Your's in service to Jesus Christ,
Evan Schaible

EDIT: Below is a link to a wonderful sermon by Gerhard DuTuit. The first bit of the sermon talks about true brokenness in contrast to pride. It is interesting in watching exchanges here on these boards who are actually the ones in obvious pride, and talking so often about a humility they know nothing about.

Evan Schaible

 2008/1/28 2:09Profile

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


hi, apart from the presence of God there is no holiness.... holy ground was holy because of the thrice holy God was there,holy bible is ink and paper without are holy only if He abides in you and you in Him.Jesus told the rich young ruler call no man good for there is none holy...not one. then he demonstrated clearly that this man who kept the law from youth was far from holy...jimp let us examine our own selves and our own humility or lack thereof.

 2008/1/28 5:18Profile

Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991


Believers have freedom from an evil nature. The apostle Paul states, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20.) Do not these words reveal that Christians have been delivered from both inward and outward sin? All true believers have had their hearts cleansed by faith, and seek to be pure and holy. They have a new inward nature that affects the outside. Instead of anger, bitterness and unforgiveness there is the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and self-control. [b]If, as some say, we are only freed from sin at death, then does not this make death the saviour?[/b] Yes, we do allow sin into our lives, but through the Holy Spirit our consciences tell us that we must “confess our sins” so that the faithful and just Lord would “forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9.)

[url=]John Wesley on Christian Perfection[/url]


 2008/1/28 5:29Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK



"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom, of heaven; but
he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"

(Matt. vii. 21). Now, "This is the will of God, even your sanctification ... For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness"

(I Thess. iv. 3, 7). Without holiness, "no man can see the Lord" (Heb. xii. 14). Therefore, "Be ye holy!" (I Pet. i. 16).

Any one who reads his Bible in sincerity, "not handling the word of God deceitfully" (2 Cor. iv. 2), will see that it plainly teaches that God expects His people to be holy, and that we must be holy to be happy and useful here and to enter the kingdom of Heaven hereafter. When once a true man is convinced that the Bible teaches these facts and that this is God's will, he will next inquire, "What is this holiness? When can I get it, and how?"

There is much difference of opinion on all these points, although the Bible is simple and
plain on each one to every honest seeker after truth. The Bible tells us that holiness is perfect deliverance from sin.

"The Blood of Jesus Christ ... cleanseth us from ALL sin" (I John 1:7). Not one bit of sin is left, for your old man is crucified with Him, "that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin" (Rom. vi. 6), for we are "made free from sin" (Rom. vi. 18). And we are henceforth to reckon ourselves "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God, through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. vi. 11).

The Bible also tells us that it is "perfect love," which must, in the very nature of the case, expel from the heart all hatred and every evil temper contrary to love, just as you must first empty a cup of all oil that may be in it before you can fill it with water. Thus, holiness is a state in which there is no anger, malice, blasphemy, hypocrisy, envy, love of ease, selfish desires for good opinion of men, shame of the Cross, worldliness, deceit, debate, contention, covetousness, nor any evil desire or tendency in the heart. It is a state in which there is no longer any doubt or fear. It is a state in which God is loved and trusted with a perfect heart. But though the heart may be perfect, the head may be very imperfect, and through the imperfections of his head -- of his memory, his judgment, his reason -- the holy man may make many mistakes. Yet God looks at the sincerity of his purpose, at the love and faith of his heart -- not at the imperfections of the head -- and calls him a holy man. Holiness is not absolute perfection, which belongs to God only; nor is it angelic perfection; nor is it Adamic perfection -- for, no doubt, Adam had a perfect head as well as a perfect heart before he sinned against God. But it is Christian perfection -- such perfection and obedience of the heart as a poor fallen creature, aided by almighty power and boundless grace, can give.

It is that state of heart and life which consists in being and doing all the time -- not by fits and starts, but steadily -- just what God wants us to be and do.

Jesus said, "Make the tree good, and his fruit good" (Matt. xii. 33). Now, an apple-tree is an apple-tree all the time, and can bring forth nothing but apples. So holiness is that perfect renewal of our nature that makes us essentially good, so that we continually bring forth fruit unto God -- "the fruit of the Spirit," which "is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" (Gal. v. 22, 23), with never a single work of the flesh grafted in among this heavenly fruitage.

Colin Murray

 2008/1/28 6:32Profile

Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA


Hello Josef_Urban thanks for sharing.

“The youngest in grace magnified Christ”.Harry A. Ironside

The young man was carried up on a high mountain
The old man on his way to Damascus with a pocket full of warrants
The new man ------ Drank-----------and gave Thanks. Eddie

THere is some truth in the words of men.


 2008/1/28 7:29Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582



I think that it might do us well to consider the opposite of that which this article expresses. Is there anyone so bold as to claim that they are "holy" while living in sin? To what extent would we claim that God has "imputed" holiness onto us -- and then we perpetually live in a state of sin? It seems that calling such a person "holy" because of some supposed "imputed holiness" would simply be untrue.

How many people have you met who have come to Christ out of sincerity and have walked with the Lord for years? How many of these have ever been led astray because of the cares of this world, the deceiptfulness of wealth, etc...? What if such a man or woman continually "gives in" to the fulfillment of such lusts? Could such a person still claim "imputed holiness?"

I have met individuals who live in sin yet claim that they have the holiness of God within them. They dismiss any notion that holy living is in any way connected with holiness -- because they claim that it is impossible to fulfill the Law or 100% holiness. They claim, "[i]God doesn't see my flesh -- He sees Christ in me[/i]!" How silly! God looks into us and examines the thoughts and intentions of our heart!

I suggest that it isn't pure perfection that makes a person "holy" -- but the attitude, heart-condition and desires of such a person. Does that person make an effort to live a "holy" life? Does that person "flee" from the thought of sin and unrighteousness?

Just something to think about...



 2008/1/28 11:32Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK


Samuel Brengles Testimony

On January 9, 1885, at about nine o'clock in the morning, God sanctified my soul. I was in
my own room at the time, but in a few minutes I went out and met a man and told him what God had done for me.

The next morning, I met another friend on the street and told him the blessed story. He shouted and praised God and urged me to preach full salvation and confess it everywhere. God used him to encourage and help me. So the following day I preached on the subject as clearly and forcibly as I could, and ended with my testimony. God blessed the word mightily to others, but I think He blessed it most to myself. That confession put me on record. It cut the bridges down behind me. Three worlds were now looking at me as one who professed that God had given him a clean heart. I could not go back now. I had to go forward. God saw that I meant to be true till death. So two mornings after that, just as I got out of bed and was reading some of the words of Jesus, He gave me such a blessing as I never had dreamed a man could have this side of Heaven. It was a heaven of love that came into my heart. I walked out over Boston Common before breakfast weeping for joy and praising God. Oh, how I loved! In that hour I knew Jesus and I loved Him till it seemed my heart would break with love. I loved the sparrows, I loved the dogs, I loved the horses, I loved the little urchins on the streets, I loved the strangers who hurried past me, I loved the heathen -- I loved the whole world.

Do you want to know what holiness is? It is pure love. Do you want to know what the baptism of the Holy Ghost is? It is not a mere sentiment. It is not a happy sensation that passes away in a night. It is a baptism of love that brings every thought into captivity to the Lord Jesus (2 Cor. x. 5); that casts out all fear (I John iv. 18); that burns up doubt and unbelief as fire burns tow; that makes one "meek and lowly in heart" (Matt. xi. 29); that makes one hate uncleanness, lying and deceit, a flattering tongue and every evil way with a perfect hatred; that makes Heaven and Hell eternal realities; that makes one patient and gentle with the froward and sinful; that makes one "pure ... peaceable ... easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy" (Jas. iii. 17); that brings one into perfect and unbroken sympathy with the Lord

Jesus Christ in His toil and travail to bring a lost and rebel world back to God. God did all that for me, bless His holy name! Oh, how I had longed to be pure! Oh, how I had hungered and thirsted for God -- the living God! And He gave me the desire of my heart.

He satisfied me -- I weigh my words -- He satisfied me! He satisfied me!

These ten years have been wonderful. God has become my Teacher, my Guide, my
Counselor, my All and in All.

He has allowed me to be perplexed and tempted, but it has been for my good. I have no
complaint to make against Him. Sometimes it has seemed that He had left me alone, but it has been
as the mother who stands away from her little child to teach him to use his own legs that he may walk. He has not suffered me to fall.
He has been with my mouth and helped me to speak of Jesus and His great salvation in a way to instruct, comfort and save other souls. He has been light to my darkness, strength to my
weakness, wisdom in my foolishness, knowledge in my ignorance.

When my way has been hedged up and it seemed that no way could be found out of my
temptations and difficulties, He has cut a way through for me, just as He opened the Red Sea for

When my heart has ached, He has comforted me; when my feet had well-nigh slipped, He has held me up; when my faith has trembled, He has encouraged me; when I have been in sore
need, He has supplied all my need; when I have been hungry, He has fed me; when I have thirsted, He has given me living water.

Oh, glory to God!

What has He not done for me?

What has He not been to me?

I recommend Him to the world.

Colin Murray

 2008/1/28 17:26Profile


Evan, contrary to your false accusation (and in doing so you are doing the very thing you accuse me of), I am not on a "recent campaign against holiness". I won't keep silent though when I see a false and psuedo "holiness" that exalts the flesh and works of man, masquerading as an angel of light while promoting a doctrine of demons.

CHRIST is our holiness before the Throne!
CHRIST is our justification before the Throne!
CHRIST is our righteousness before the Throne!
CHRIST is our sanctification before the Throne!
YOUR FLESH is an abomination to God!

"In me and my flesh is no good thing" -The Apostle Paul

And [b]if[/b] you think you are perfect and sinless in the flesh you are deceived.

And I tell you of a truth: WITHOUT [i]TRUE[/i] HOLINESS NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD (HEB 12:14). Good luck before the Throne of God with the psuedo holiness of the flesh based upon your own works and good luck on that Day trying to commend yourself to the grace of God with your 'perfection' in the flesh! -If that is truly what you [i]still[/i] believe (as you have clearly contended for such a thing in the past).

[i]1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/i]

Though you don't realize it, claiming perfection in the flesh is SIN in itself, not holiness! And it's heresy. Anyone who claims their flesh is sinless and perfect is a liar and a deceiever, deceiving their own selves, and such have not the truth of God in them!

 2008/1/28 19:47

Joined: 2006/3/5
Posts: 29
"No Certain dwellingplace"



I only posted that you might have an opportunity to see the spirit of you're posts. While I do disagree with you theologically, and doctrinally, I think we can avoid accusative and contentious attacks. Just because there are differing doctrinal opinions does not mean that you have to attack them, cannot the Lord uphold His truth?

There is a place for disassociation, but for open and blatant sin. The only time I can ever recall from scripture a warranted excommunication, or anyone being anathematized (being called a heretic) is in consequence of teaching that the resurrection is already past. The holiness people are a far cry from that false teaching.

Actually, the very word heresy is interesting in the Greek as it does not mean someone who teaches false doctrine at all - we have been conditioned to call someone a heretic who teaches false doctrine be the Roman Catholic Church. Essentially what we are doing is playing the role of the inquisition and stating that if we could, we would burn you at the stake when we call someone that harsh word.

The word heretic means 'divisive person' - or one who causes division. That is off of the top of my head, so I have not exactly defined it for you. So if we were to measure this difference upon New Testament grounds we would have to conclude that the one initiating the division, meaning the one who not initiates the discussion, but rather the origin of the divisive spirit is the heretic.

So as Paul said to Titus, "A heretic after the first and second admonition reject..." - meaning someone who has a haughty, contentious spirit must be, after being exhorted twice, rejected until repentance and restitution can be made. The hardest thing for any Christian to do is reject a heretic, or cast out someone who is causing division, as it can all to easily be turned around and said that the one who thrust out the man is the origin of the division. But let the Lord be our defense, and He knows them that are His.

Anyhow Josef, please dear brother, refrain from these types of posts - they do no good to the body of Christ or the glory of God. I know I hold no authority on these boards as one who can make statements like these, but let us please "submit ourselves one to another" and "esteem each other better than ourselves". God has invested much in you, and I would hate to see that thrown away because of a silly doctrine you disagree with.

Yours in service to Jesus Christ,
Evan Schaible

Evan Schaible

 2008/1/28 22:39Profile

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