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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Holiness Imputed? "In Christ" Phraseology

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 Re:

Quote:
Did you have something to share in regards to the passage from Exodus and the article or the author's view of it?



Hi Chris,

Sorry, I assumed you would see the NT correlation to your scripture in Exodus.

Holiness, consecration etc, are just that...being set apart. We are set apart, and are called a Royal Priesthood, Holy and acceptable.

The Body of Christ is a Holy habitation, Christ the chief cornerstone, as we, his Body are built up together with Him.

Holiness ...meaning we are no longer part of this world system.

Just as the Levitical Priesthood had no land promised, but were spread throughout the land, and a special calling...so are we.

We are strangers and pilgrims in this world.

This is exactly what Peter was saying with the scripture I posted.

Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/19 16:53
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Thank you Katy, but that isn't what I had asked?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/19 16:58Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I don't know why the righteousness of Christ being imputed to those "in Him" would be questioned except for those who may not fully understand the implications of the Law.

There must be a perfect righteousness for ALL those who will be in Heaven. No human being, or child of Adam can do this as one sin, ruins forever the state required for entrance into Heaven.

So for a man, any man to ever think that he may be accepted by God for his supposed righteousness is perhaps one of Satan's greatest deceptions. For by this trickery alone many are forced to "work harder" or "look further within" to find that so called holiness that God will somehow accept and open wide the gates of Heaven.

There is one and only one way into Heaven- Christ.

His perfect keeping of the Law(all of it), and His sacrificial death in the place of sinners is the only way. A man is justified as he is given faith to believe this.

The crucifixion is something that happened outside of our existence and is true whether we believe it or not. It is an objective action by which Christ suffered the wrath of God to bear the sins of those whom God foreknew and elected. It has nothing to do with our feelings about the crucifixion, or our holiness, or even our progress in the Christian life, because none of these save us, Christ saves us alone.

To mix man's works into the equation is to create "a Jesus", but it is not "the Jesus" of Scripture who dies for the sheep.

This idea of Jesus plus something else, is nothing new, the Galatian Church was facing the same dilemma as false teachers came in and were teaching that a man must believe in Christ, and be circumcised to be a Christian. The harshest language Paul uses is towards these men who were saying that the work of Christ alone was not enough to save people.

The law, and a law made up by men will never save a person. It will however further lead them into damnation, and self delusion as Satan will get them to think they are doing so well in the Christian life, and they will trample Christ under foot, and count His blood as nothing because they have their own works that they are supposing to hold up to God as a means of righteousness.

Now of course some will say, "Faith alone cannot be enough! Good works must come as well, we ought to be different people."

Very well then, how many good works is enough? who judges these works as "good"?

How different is different enough?

Do you see the endless quest it is? One man over here says, "this do and you shall live", and another over here says , "no do this and live."

But the Gospel says , "believe and receive!"

The Gospel is "good news" to be believed or rejected. It is not steps to a better life, or a better marriage, or a holier sinner. It is the FACT that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and rose again for our justification.

No man can believe this apart from the Holy Spirit convicting him of his sin and need of a Savior, and what the Holy Spirit starts He finishes.

A man that has faith in Christ is as holy the day he believed as he will be the day he dies because his holiness, justification, wisdom, and redemption are in Christ(1 Corinthians 1:30).

I am sure there will much debate about this, but I fear that many have left the simplicity of Christ, and faith alone.


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patrick heaviside

 2008/1/19 18:51Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
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 Re:

Hi Forevidence...

Thank you for this interesting article. I think that I understand what the author is trying to say, and I must admit that I agree.

A few years ago, I watched a preacher speak about how "God sees his blood covering us rather than our sin" in regard to believers. I've often thought that this is a very silly notion. God doesn't see HIS blood. His eyes look deep within us to see the condition of our hearts. God sees those inner things (including choices, additions, lusts, etc...) that are often hidden under what we falsely consider "God's imputed holiness."

I've heard some believers who partake of questionable lifestyle choices explain that they have "freedom" to indulge themselves, because "it would be impossible to live up to God's standard of holiness." They claimed to rely solely upon the "holiness that God has imputed to us."

The Word of God is expressly clear about choices of conduct and lifestyle -- even in the New Testament. While it is true that it is impossible to live a completely and utterly flawless life after coming to Christ, the grace and mercy of God continues to allow us the opportunity to draw us closer to His image. It almost seems like an insult to the grace of God to claim such nonbinding "imputed holiness" if we choose to continuously indulge in the temptations of this world (the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life).

I suppose that the author is stating that "holiness" is not a costume that is immediately thrust upon us once we come to Christ. Rather, it is a garment of righteousness in which we must not soil with sin. Remember, the Word of God judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. It is irrelevant to claim a "blank check" of selfish grace simply because we met the Lord. The Lord still desires to know us, fellowship with us, and for us to show forth fruit unto repentance.

:-)


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Christopher

 2008/1/19 19:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
am sure there will much debate about this, but I fear that many have left the simplicity of Christ, and faith alone.




Roaringlamb,

AMEN!!!!

We are complete in Him...


SDA's believe in *imparted* righteousness, and I believe this teaching gone astray on Holiness is much the same.

Holy unto God...separation!


Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/19 19:12









 Re: Holiness Imputed? "In Christ" Phraseology



Hi Chris,

I just want to comment on this that you said, because I posted a hymn recently with an interesting line, which I know from a previous thread, is scripturally accurate.

Quote:
Rather, it is a garment of righteousness in which we must not soil with sin.

In answer to what we do [i][b]if[/i][/b] we spot the garment with sin?

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, [b]and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/b]

As I understand it, that word 'washed' actually does mean 'laundered'.

This is completely different from holiness.


I don't think I have time to hang in this thread, so I'd like to leave one other thought for the general mix, which is that Jesus said some interesting things in John 17, particularly about sanctifying Himself with truth for the sake of the disciples, and prayed the Father would sanctify them through His truth: 'thy word is truth', v 17.

We've had discussion here before, about instant sanctification (being set apart once and for all), and that the process of looking at Jesus and being changed into His image (2 Cor 3) is better termed 'glorification' - that is, being changed from glory to glory. This also resonates with the prayer of Jesus in John 17.

Frankly, if I can't believe I'm holy because of the work Christ did for me on the cross, then how can He reveal the Father to me, or beckon me into the Father's presence, seeing I am still apparently unclean, according to this thesis?

I know it requires robust faith to believe God accepts us, but if He does, it is because He sees us completed in Christ... (ooops... there's that tricky phrase again.... ) no pun intended.


May this conversation bear much fruit which will remain unto God's pleasure.




 2008/1/19 19:25
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

Hi dorcas...

I understand what you're saying and I generally agree. However, that isn't the same as "imputed righteousness and holiness." The word "imputed" signifies that a righteousness and holiness is ingrafted into the believer. The Scriptures you provided (and those which were referred to within this message) seemingly indicate that individuals are MADE righteous and holy (like a newborn child) because of a person is made new.

This is the "tabula rasa" (or "clean slate") referred to in early protestant writing which we are given a "clean slate" (both at birth [contrary to the notion of "divine rights"] and at our second birth). In other words, when we come to Christ, we are made new, righteous and holy. The grace of God allows us to remain in a state of constant sanctification, in which we sanctify ourselves (by coming back to Christ daily) as sin or uncleanliness becomes evident.

I certainly agree that we are made clean by the giving of ourselves to the Lord. How can we come to the Lord (or be "beckoned" to come) if we are not completely holy? Remember that we were still in sin when we were drawn to the Lord. The rebirth didn't take place until after we were drawn to Him.

:-)


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Christopher

 2008/1/19 21:20Profile









 Re: Holiness Imputed? "In Christ" Phraseology


Hi Chris,

There is also the matter of whether one believes in [i]imparted[/i] righteousness. But... moving back to 'imputed', I looked up a dictionary to check your impression of ingrafting, and I don't find it. From dictionary.com, under 'impute'

[i]4. [u]Theology[/u]: to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another [/i]


To answer the word 'ingrafted', Romans 6 majors on that picture: that we are grafted into His death and likewise grafted into His resurrection.

His very life becomes ours. The author of the article separates His [u]life[/u] from everything else about Him; as far as I can tell, merely to support his argument, and not because it makes sense of the commonest variety, in light of many other verses.

This really is the difference between the legal aspect of salvation, and the experiential aspect. I return to the simple truth that if Christ's work in me makes it possible for Himself to dwell in me, then there is no intellectual or theological difficulty in my claim to be 'in Christ' - John 17 and first part of verse 21: 'That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [i]art[/i] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:'

Logically, the Father is in me, and I am in the Father, also. Amen.

 2008/1/20 12:21
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

Hi dorcas...

I didn't mean that the word "impute" itself only signifies that something is "ingrafted." There are many different definitions for the word. However, in the context of the original post, it seems that some suggest that holiness and righteousness is an almost permanent condition that is ingrafted within a person who becomes a believer. If such holiness and righteousness becomes the very nature of a believer, then why did Paul, Peter, James, etc... waste our time with the pointed remarks about living holy and sanctified lives? Why would they preach about avoiding temptations, lusts, etc... if our very nature has become replaced with God's holiness and righteousness?

That was the point that I was trying to make. Yes, the life of Christ in a sense becomes our own. However, there is still a choice that every believer must make. We do not lose "free will" after coming to Christ. Rather, we continue to freely choose to continue this walk. We choose to live a holy life. We must continually choose to know, fellowship and serve Him (and His desires for our lives).

Even after coming to the Lord, evil is still at work. We must still decide to avoid temptation. The possibility remains that a person who is following the Lord could still "run ahead" and depart from the teachings of Christ. The end of such a person is not good.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/1/20 18:03Profile









 Re: Holiness Imputed? "In Christ" Phraseology


Hi Chris,

Of course you are right about our need to keep choosing right in line with righteousness - or holiness is going to be the first casualty.

I suppose my reading of the exercpt made me resist the level of unbelief it required to accept the writer's thesis... no 'glory to glory' in that line of reasoning!

 2008/1/20 19:24





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