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crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Soothsayers ~ Present realities

Quote:
You are no conspirator, any more than Annie is Jesus, yet there is a kind of parallel. You are just another "Peter" saying "No way! This shall never happen!" You aren't using those words, and the times and situation are different, but that in essence is what you are doing.



No! That it is not the case whatsoever, forgive my attempting to speak in Chris' stead here .. but certainly not. The very trouble in so much of what he might try and bring here for just consideration, challenging the assumptions, testing whether things are indeed [i] factual[/i], it is no different than what I myself often attempt here. Everything has to be clothed in the garb of 'either\or' despite the attempts otherwise to express just what the matter truly is. That is not what he is saying nor what some of us who are challenging whatever the case may be ... Is it true? Is it factual? Or is it ... something other? Something speculative ... This should not be that difficult to grasp. And it applies to everything, not just these matters. It is a leap of assumption to use Peter's word in this fashion, it is not the essence at all.


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Mike Balog

 2008/1/13 20:17Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Soothsayers ~ Present realities

Goodness .. if I had known that this would get this far misconstrued would surely have never bothered.

I grabbed soothsaying as a derivative not as wholesale indictment, for crying out loud, the attempt to just draw off was part of the explanation or analogy.

"If it's this, if it's that ...".

These things have been going on for quite some time in all manners of postings, there is no need to try and find "Where's Waldo" in this. Is it not too much to further that perhaps a conspiracy mindedness is even apparent here? That there is something other or else-wise in just a call back to more heart related matters, to those things that are truly promoted here by speaker, by article, what have you. That was the essence.

Quote:
I'm just in a state of disbelief right now, that's all. I don't take this personally at all.

Differences of opinions are to be expected, but when a word equivalent to demonic-witchcraft is attributed to good Discernment Ministries that are all agreeing against the same movements, that are bringing deception into the Church - that's frightening.



Are you sure Annie? That it is not personal? Honestly, I didn't set out here to do anything than make an observation of what appears to be a preoccupation by the quantity of these type's of posts over the course of the last couple of months and what the impulse is ...

The outstanding post that pastorfrin has been feeding us on prayer. Where are the replies? Are they too long, too difficult, too much head and heart work than to go a speculating instead? That is not a personal dig, please hear what I am saying. There has always been room here and I pray there always will be for all these things, I do not know that this was an attempt to even thwart them all and wish they would come to a griding halt. The whole point has been lost even before it got started it seems.

Maybe it was a very ill-advised attempt to just ask where are heads and hearts are at. Perhaps that would have been better.


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Mike Balog

 2008/1/13 20:45Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Posts: 4779


 Re: Soothsayers ~ Present realities

Hi Littlegift…

I think that you are very incorrect in your analogy. Annie HAS either made or repeated an accusation (in this case, against the CFR and the TC). She has alleged that she knows the “secret motives of those two organizations (accusing them of holding a goal of creating a one world government).

It is a conspiracy. It is a theory. It is a conspiracy theory. Are you trying to say that this sort of gossip is [i]appropriate[/i] for believers?

These particular conspiracy theories have been refuted by proof over and over again (by believers and unbelievers alike). These organizations have even been forced to defend themselves against these sorts of slanderous accusations. Yet the groups of conspiracy theorists continue to utter their allegations without using caution or an appropriate disclaimer that distinguishes such rhetoric as opinion, assumption or even rumor. Instead, it is presented as fact.

If these are not an unhealthy obsession – then why do they continue to be spread as if they were fact (rather than a persuasion)? The posts stated explicitly (just like the conspiracy websites which they resemble) that these two organizations (as a whole) are purposed in creating a one world government. The evidence that I presented was not meant to take the place of Annie’s allegations, but rather to remind those who make such statements about the possibility of being wrong. Yet I feel that I have been “attacked” in the sense – not for defending these organizations (I am not) – but for raising issue to those who voice such conspiracies as undeniable truth.

Am I wrong?

Sister, we ARE at war with the enemies of God. However, don’t you think that the soldiers of Christ are supposed to act as GOOD soldiers? As with the verse that you mentioned, a good soldier should not “[i] entangleth himself with the affairs of this life[/i]” (II Timothy 2:3). Do you not see how the repetition of these often outrageous conspiracy theories is such an entanglement? Yet the fingers of conspiracy are pointing here, there and just about everywhere. They are making accusations in the public – in full view of the world, unbelievers and believers alike. Do you think that there is much of a chance for those CFR individuals to esteem the words of believers who utter conspiracy theories as INDISPUTABLE FACT (especially in regards to themselves) in which they know are false?

All that I am saying is that if we are going to use these forums to utter such conspiracies, we should not present such information as TRUTH unless it is completely verifiable and indisputable. If we have any doubt (in this case, there needs to be doubt), then we should offer a disclaimer less we endanger our credibility or even our witness in regards to individuals, organizations or even governments.

You know, I am perplexed at how silly this all is. I’ve been praying about this, and I feel that this entire ordeal is rather absurd. Where is the “good” in making slanderous accusations about an organization in which we haven’t either provided indisputable evidence or is the commonly understood truth? I know some individuals within these groups, and they would be extremely hurt if they learned of the accusations made here. These are good men (with at least two believers that I know) who do not want a one-world government in the least.

We should be slow to speak…especially if we are making damaging allegations. Does Annie have a right to utter her claims? Of course she does. Such things could be enlightening if they are used with proper care. In fact, I agree with her far more often than I disagree. But we need to caution against the possibilities of error or bearing false witness against a person or organization. And I don’t think that this post was directed at anyone in particular (i.e., Annie and myself), but at a series of situations that have arisen in various threads here.

There is a guideline against centering on conspiracy theories within the SermonIndex forums. Why? Simply put, it is not the purpose or emphasis of this website. In the past, there have been Bush-bashers, election conspiracies, Iraq-war conspiracies, and even conspiracies uttered in regards to simple things. While the discussion of Biblical Eschatology can have a good effect when used in proper context, are we supposed to be heading down the “conspiracy” road as “forensic investigators” of “the depths of Satan.”

Like I said earlier, there is a place for “watching” and “warning.” But are the accusations that are being uttered as “fact” reflective of either “watching” or “warning?” Perhaps it would have been much better to raise these issues as a possibility open for discussion rather than making such an undeniable accusation about both of these organizations (or some of these other “secret” things). In the “Secret NAFTA Superhighway” thread, our brother who initiated that thread allowed it to be open for discussion. However, flat out accusations like these (in regard to the CFR and TC) were presented as “truth” without even allowing possibility of error (or citing our sources).

Like Annie, I wish that I could pinch myself and wake up from this bad dream. And I apologize if my words were construed in such a way as if I were accusing a brother or sister of having questionable intentions in their posts. But could you imagine how the people in the accused organizations must feel? I watched an interview with Jenna Bush (daughter of the President) the other day. She broke down in tears when she described how difficult it is to see her father maligned in public, or accused of things that just aren’t true. She said that it has caused her to want to NEVER get involved in visible, public service. It made me wonder just how unbelievers view our forums? Do our conversations (and accusations) have a similar effect?

:-(


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Christopher

 2008/1/13 20:47Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
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 Re:

When the Lord said watch was He reffering to any of these:


CBS, ABC, NBC?

The Internet?

Your favorite discerment ministry?

The latest book that has it all mapped out?

The latest movie that has it all played out?

The moves of the United Nations?

The President? A President? any President?


Are these the things that the Lord Jesus Christ told His follwers to watch?


Well?







_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/13 21:03Profile









 Re: Soothsayers ~ Present realities



Hi Mike,

I don't want to spend more time writing about these things than I have to, as you have remarked over how much there is already available elsewhere.

Quote:
It is innately speculative at best and I am beginning to become rather disturbed that at worse it is taking off the focus on what truly matters and what we ought to be spending our time and efforts on.

I sent my copy of Light Force, by Brother Andrew, to Neil, although I had not finished reading it. I'd come to the place, though, where he was visiting a family in the Middle East whose house had been affected by local skirmishes and shooting of different kinds. There was a room they did not use any more, except to retrieve, from time to time, this or that which normally was kept there. The floor was covered in stuff which had come off the walls and windows, which crunched under your feet. He painted a vivid picture of the choices one has to make in such circumstances. How much longer to wait after the last time you heard a shot fired, for instance, before coming out of the safest space in the house. Reading this woke me up in a way that listening to war reports never had done, although I've lived in a third world country where the cleanest water brought for miles by children with small containers on their heads, still requires to be boiled and filtered before drinking, and roads are unpaved - I mean, potholed when its dry, and a sea of mud when it rains.

Because I've lived through such primitive conditions, I'm less afraid of them than if I hadn't, but, I have a healthy respect for guns, and I have no idea how I'd stand up under persecution... but I want to endure to the end. We know all these conditions prevail in various parts of the world already, and yet God has seen fit to have us born into societies where such overt hardship is rare, and overt persecution is limited to the activities of individuals and small groups, which are not controlled by our beloved legal systems. 'Rights' are a political theory, which don't filter down to everyone - but that doesn't matter. It's the thought that counts.

You said 'It is innately speculative at best'. In the context of your paragraph, that is one thing that this is not - 'speculative'. God is gracious to us in our ignorance and miraculously protects, guides, keeps and sustains those who cast themselves wholly upon Him. Therefore, my interest in seeking to discern evil, is that I may resist it with appropriate abandon, not fearing the consequences. This may be only part of what it is to be a Christian, but how can we keep ourselves unspotted from the world (for instance), if our definition of 'the world' is faulty? How can we 'resist the devil and he will flee from you' if we don't recognise his footprints when we see them, or discern not in the voice of persuasion, the Shepherd's tones?

I honestly didn't intend to write all this, but your worries about the details of who, what and which - which may have been fostered by some of the links posted in threads dealing with this topic - are too short-sighted and parochial .... if I may be thus bold to say so. The ground has been being prepared for 2000 years now, and however much longer it takes for the plans to reach completion... of course we know God is not surprised... but you know very well that Paul says we will not be overtaken as by a thief because we will not be surprised either. How is this going to happen, if it is not considered a mandatory part of Christianty (by you), to prepare?

The people who will turn out to be against us, will not necessarily be the foreign soldiers of another sovereign state, but men and women some of us know, recklessly trusted, and unwittingly opened ourselves up to. I've done the same, but I intend that to be in the past. These will not necessarily be church people, but of course, some of them will be, whose hearts were never changed.

Quote:
I hesitate to bring an example for the want of yet another exemption or launching off on to more of the same ... Mr. Warren's "PEACE plan" as illustrative. A project doomed to failure! It is so completely absurd that it reeks of the very idea of;

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:1-3

This is an example of what I mean. This man is not acting alone, like a madman. He has been beguiled to join something [i]which already exists[/i], with the aim of drawing the people he influences, in under an ungodly power. Would we consider this sinister if a non-Christian was venturing this? I think probably not, but his claims as a man of God and his excellent apologetics under questioning, are confusing for the less educated listener\follower - and, he is not drawing his followers closer to the Lord, but away from Him.

In Miccah's thread Preparation for the end times, Lisa wrote that she'd had a dream in which strong delusion covered the whole world in a few hours. The very fact of such a revelation makes me [i]think[/i], because I know the power of God to communicate truth in dreams, and if nothing else, I don't want to be one of the deluded. For such a deliverance though, I don't look to myself, but to the Lord. However, to be saved from being deluded, I would need to identify a choice at some point, and I might not have long to make that choice. So for now, I find it helpful to present myself to the Lord for further sifting, and to take upon myself to exercise common sense in matters already at hand.

The only other thing I'd like to contend, is that the Christian [i]not[/i] about facts and information in the sense that a scientist might seek. We are about truth and there is serious difference in that truth may defy experimental proof - but nevertheless will stand - while facts and information which can be processed, will one day pass away forever. We should be able to find within ourselves, a core of truth which is eternal. Beside is, what is information?

The antiChrist machine has never been idle, but in the way that a vessel being filled with water reaches a point of not yet being full, and requiring on that last drop to complete the filling, so as the years roll by, there is progress towards the fulfillment of certain prophecies. It simply must be that there is a fulness of time for [i]all things[/i] that should come to pass, and we are continually living though 'things' coming to pass. We cannot evade nor prevent them, and we don't have to be ignorant either - but I do admit that perhaps it is not given to every Christian to hear in their Spirit the same whispers about them.

My greatest concern, in deciding to make this post, is not to attempt to place where world history is in scripture right now, but to make a cold-blooded statement about the need for Christians - whether they stay, or go - to get a proper grip of God in their [b]consciousness[/b], which [u]convinces[/u] them not to give up on Him under [u]any[/u] circumstances.... and He will do the rest. Now, probably I've said enough. Sorry it was so long.

 2008/1/13 21:07









 Re: Soothsayers ~ Present realities

Quote:
Are you sure Annie? That it is not personal?




Yes, I am sure Mike.

Quote:
The outstanding post that pastorfrin has been feeding us on prayer. Where are the replies?



Possibly in our closets.

Quote:
That is not a personal dig, please hear what I am saying.



I know it couldn't have been a personal dig, because you have no way of knowing how much I or we pray.

Quote:
Maybe it was a very ill-advised attempt to just ask where are heads and hearts are at.



On all the other good threads and Sermons offered?

Quote:
Perhaps that would have been better.



Maybe a PM ministry would help for those you're really concerned over?
That's sort of like a Matt 18 approach.


Well, disagreements and misunderstandings are human.

Do love you Mike & Chris.

Annie

 2008/1/13 21:08
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dorcas,


"We are about truth"


And what if the things you and other repeat are lies, half-truths, or mis-information? Is that going to pass by the One Whose eyes are like flames of fire?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/13 21:12Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Or how about depositing it in the spirits of His lambs, is He going to hold you guiltless?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/13 21:15Profile









 Re: Soothsayers ~ Present realities




ChrisJD asked

Quote:
When the Lord said watch

... what was it for?

I believe we are to watch for His return.

And for His interests on earth - the well-being of the Church.

 2008/1/13 21:25
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Never mind

Sisters,

I do not know what the penchant is for restating things in our own words is and I likely do just as much ... But the whole attempt here is not anything that is being touched on and that can only mean that it was poorly communicated.

I regret the attempt, it is not coming through in any way that I had intended, my failure. Just let it die ...


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Mike Balog

 2008/1/13 22:47Profile





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