Will you say to me:Paul was inspired of God, yet men cannot understand himCalvin was not inspired of God but him you can understand.
_________________Christopher Joel Dandrow
The following is a quote from an article that is well worth reading."As diversified as the modern professing religious world may be with regard to its numerous sects and communions, split up as it is with its irreconcilable creeds and contentions, it will nevertheless be found, upon close and critical examination, that among those who can (reasonably) be called Christian, there are basically only two sections or parties. Practices may vary, diverse views on many subjects may be held, different attitudes may be taken up in relationship to many questions, and the outlooks may be fixed at widely differing angles, but the fundamental positions occupied will be found to center on one or the other of two distinct forms of belief. Perhaps it is more correct to say that all such perspectives derive from one of two systems of theology. The root principles of all are to be found embedded either in Calvinism or in Arminianism. Such, at least, are the modern terms used to distinguish and describe these widely differing systems of theological thought and teaching". The article is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19441&forum=36]here[/url]Edit: I'm not directing anyone to this article as a Calvinism endorsement, but I think it explains a few things that have been brought up in this thread well.
What I believe is so sad is God through Paul has perfectly declared who God's ELECT are.If you read Romand 6-8 and these verses, the end of Romans 8 are a summary and exortation of what Paul was saying before, beginning in Chapter 5/6,Those who have yielded themselves to God to live the Righteousness of Christ in them, these are those given the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, who's end IS holiness and eternal life, these NOW call our Father Abba Father, are NOW joint heirs with Christ. Who HE has justified them HE has Glorified. (John 17).Do you really need systems to teach you this? It's so simple....so don't be moved away from the SIMPLICITY that is IN CHRIST JESUS.Read Romans 5-8...it's all there. If this speaks to you...you are God's Elect. There is no mystery about it. The Mystery is Christ In You...the Hope of Glory...John 17. Romans 5-8 explain how Christ comes to be IN YOU.See how he summs up all he said before.....Nothing can separate you from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus. Are you In Christ Jesus, is He in You? [u][b]33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [/b][/u] 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Katy
Michael,No, I wasn't frustrated when I wrote my last post. I [i]was[/i] tired. A coworker came to my home last night and I was sharing Christ with them and it got late. I apologize if my tone came across as being frustrated. It probably came out that way when I started thinking of all the times people have "cornered" me and tried to pigeon-hole me by badgering me with questions. (I still can't believe people do that. I always wanted to respond by saying, "Hello? I'm not a video game. You aren't scoring any points here!")I do believe that God holds his laws in high regard, as well as His attitude towards sin. Man did break God's moral law and Christ's death on the cross was a "legal substitute" for payment of our sins. But I believe that Jesus paid the penalty of the actual sins of people, not just showing man that God's laws were broken and some penalty was paid. That's where the "propitiation" comes in. Christ satisfied our "legal debt" to God, for breaking His moral laws, by accepting the punishment on our behalf. The glorious thing is, God Himself provided it! It was the ONLY means which man could be reconciled to Him.I will admit I may have used the term "propitiation" out of context because I'm not strong in doctrinal terminology. I know what happened, I just don't understand all the terms that people put on it. I apologize if I confused you, or anyone, with terminology I'm not versed well enough in to use. :oops:It's also a conversation that, perhaps, I shouldn't have gotten involved in, precisely for that reason. All of this just seems, to me, to be man's prideful attempt to be in control and to be right. This is what causes division. The Holy Spirit is able to resolve issues such as these, between men, if they would only humble themselves to ask Him and accept His answer.No frustration or anything of the sort here, Brother. I hope I didn't cause any frustration either! :-)
theopenlife wrote:yet you probably use it to describe your belief in the Godhead. I appreciate that when I visit a professing church in my city, I may ask, "Do you believe in the Trinity?
If I may humbly submit something from Spurgeon: If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christthe bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer?This to me is the essence of the problem of Arminianism. Either Christ is all of our salvation, from beginning to end, or he is none. He is the author of it: we were chosen in him before the foundations of the universe were laid. He is the giver of our faith, and he is the object of our faith. And he is the finisher. I want to be an Arminian in my flesh. I want my salvation to be based on the choice I made. I want to appear more spiritually in tune or more intellegent than my hell-bound friends and family. I want to say that I was saved because I cooperated with God in this wonderful salvation. But I cannot.God, in his infinite mercy found me while I was still in my blood. He picked me up and breathed his life into me. I was dead in my trespasses and sins and he gave me a new birth. I was Lazarus in the tomb, he called me forth. I couldn't resist the life-giving Savior.Every Scripture from "In the beginning" to "the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all. Amen," speaks of God's divine sovereignty in the affairs of men. He is infinitely wise, only he knows why he elects some unto salvation. He is infinitely holy, none of us deserve our salvation. He is infinitely loving, and he pours his mercy on whom he will have mercy. It is his prerogative. He is infinitely just, and Jesus satisfied his justice for us. Whether we are reformed or Arminian, we should hallow his name for the fact that Christ has paid it all. I've been encouraged in other posts by some of you with whom I have deep differences. We are still members of the body of Christ. Reformed theology, that of Calvin and Knox and Luther and Edwards and Spurgeon, takes the big "I" out of the blessed salvation that God has graciously given. Brethren, let's remember "that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved." That is the only requirement. SDG,Dave
As adamant as everyone is here about their doctrinal position (or non-position, in some cases), all of this discussion misses the biggest issue in the error of these SBC "evangelists" thinking. They think that an evangelist is someone who preaches the Gospel in a church building to church members and a few of their unsaved friends. They are bemoaning their fate like the dinosaurs might have, if they could speak, before they went extinct.Ephesians 4 teaches that an evangelist equips the church to do the work of the ministry of evangelism. My point is if these guys really want to do evangelism, why don't they go out on the streets and preach? Why do they need a church building? If they want to be evangelists, why don't they start teaching churches to do evangelism? If they had been doing that all along, maybe the churches wouldn't have gone seeker sensitive so quickly. Blessings,Jon
Lawevangelis wrote:As adamant as everyone is here about their doctrinal position (or non-position, in some cases), all of this discussion misses the biggest issue in the error of these SBC "evangelists" thinking. They think that an evangelist is someone who preaches the Gospel in a church building to church members and a few of their unsaved friends. They are bemoaning their fate like the dinosaurs might have, if they could speak, before they went extinct.Ephesians 4 teaches that an evangelist equips the church to do the work of the ministry of evangelism. My point is if these guys really want to do evangelism, why don't they go out on the streets and preach? Why do they need a church building? If they want to be evangelists, why don't they start teaching churches to do evangelism? If they had been doing that all along, maybe the churches wouldn't have gone seeker sensitive so quickly. Blessings,Jon