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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Will you say to me:


Paul was inspired of God, yet men cannot understand him

Calvin was not inspired of God but him you can understand.



_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/16 5:48Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

The following is a quote from an article that is well worth reading.

"As diversified as the modern professing religious world may be with regard to its numerous sects and communions, split up as it is with its irreconcilable creeds and contentions, it will nevertheless be found, upon close and critical examination, that among those who can (reasonably) be called Christian, there are basically only two sections or parties. Practices may vary, diverse views on many subjects may be held, different attitudes may be taken up in relationship to many questions, and the outlooks may be fixed at widely differing angles, but the fundamental positions occupied will be found to center on one or the other of two distinct forms of belief. Perhaps it is more correct to say that all such perspectives derive from one of two systems of theology. The root principles of all are to be found embedded either in Calvinism or in Arminianism. Such, at least, are the modern terms used to distinguish and describe these widely differing systems of theological thought and teaching".

The article is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19441&forum=36]here[/url]

Edit: I'm not directing anyone to this article as a Calvinism endorsement, but I think it explains a few things that have been brought up in this thread well.


_________________
TJ

 2008/1/16 10:59Profile









 Re:

What I believe is so sad is God through Paul has perfectly declared who God's ELECT are.

If you read Romand 6-8 and these verses, the end of Romans 8 are a summary and exortation of what Paul was saying before, beginning in Chapter 5/6,

Those who have yielded themselves to God to live the Righteousness of Christ in them, these are those given the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, who's end IS holiness and eternal life, these NOW call our Father Abba Father, are NOW joint heirs with Christ. Who HE has justified them HE has Glorified. (John 17).

Do you really need systems to teach you this? It's so simple....so don't be moved away from the SIMPLICITY that is IN CHRIST JESUS.

Read Romans 5-8...it's all there. If this speaks to you...you are God's Elect. There is no mystery about it. The Mystery is Christ In You...the Hope of Glory...John 17. Romans 5-8 explain how Christ comes to be IN YOU.

See how he summs up all he said before.....Nothing can separate you from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus. Are you In Christ Jesus, is He in You?


[u][b]33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [/b][/u]

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Katy

 2008/1/16 11:27
SimpleLiving
Member



Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

Michael,

No, I wasn't frustrated when I wrote my last post. I [i]was[/i] tired. A coworker came to my home last night and I was sharing Christ with them and it got late. I apologize if my tone came across as being frustrated. It probably came out that way when I started thinking of all the times people have "cornered" me and tried to pigeon-hole me by badgering me with questions. (I still can't believe people do that. I always wanted to respond by saying, "Hello? I'm not a video game. You aren't scoring any points here!")

I do believe that God holds his laws in high regard, as well as His attitude towards sin. Man did break God's moral law and Christ's death on the cross was a "legal substitute" for payment of our sins. But I believe that Jesus paid the penalty of the actual sins of people, not just showing man that God's laws were broken and some penalty was paid.

That's where the "propitiation" comes in. Christ satisfied our "legal debt" to God, for breaking His moral laws, by accepting the punishment on our behalf. The glorious thing is, God Himself provided it! It was the ONLY means which man could be reconciled to Him.

I will admit I may have used the term "propitiation" out of context because I'm not strong in doctrinal terminology. I know what happened, I just don't understand all the terms that people put on it. I apologize if I confused you, or anyone, with terminology I'm not versed well enough in to use. :oops:

It's also a conversation that, perhaps, I shouldn't have gotten involved in, precisely for that reason. All of this just seems, to me, to be man's prideful attempt to be in control and to be right. This is what causes division.

The Holy Spirit is able to resolve issues such as these, between men, if they would only humble themselves to ask Him and accept His answer.

No frustration or anything of the sort here, Brother. I hope I didn't cause any frustration either! :-)


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Keith

 2008/1/16 11:37Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

theopenlife wrote:
yet you probably use it to describe your belief in the Godhead. I appreciate that when I visit a professing church in my city, I may ask, "Do you believe in the Trinity?



As you brother, i do belive in the trinity, can you explain to everyone in a satesfying way how 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

?

I know there are some who try. there are creeds and confessions of faith that gives us [i]some[/i] understanding of the trinity. But I think you agree it is beyond our mind to comprehend fully. I can try teach a dog why 1 + 1 + 1 is only one, he will never get it. How much less will we with our limited minds trying to grasp God in our understanding.We are different beings. The trinity is one of those things, another is predestination, what my concern are, is that calvinism tried so hard define and understand certain mysteries, that they are where they are, i belive calvinism has painted itself into a corner and refuse to admit it. In the search for truth they have ignored other truths...


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/1/16 13:41Profile
davyman
Member



Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

If I may humbly submit something from Spurgeon:

If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer?

This to me is the essence of the problem of Arminianism. Either Christ is all of our salvation, from beginning to end, or he is none. He is the author of it: we were chosen in him before the foundations of the universe were laid. He is the giver of our faith, and he is the object of our faith. And he is the finisher.

I want to be an Arminian in my flesh. I want my salvation to be based on the choice I made. I want to appear more spiritually in tune or more intellegent than my hell-bound friends and family. I want to say that I was saved because I cooperated with God in this wonderful salvation. But I cannot.

God, in his infinite mercy found me while I was still in my blood. He picked me up and breathed his life into me. I was dead in my trespasses and sins and he gave me a new birth. I was Lazarus in the tomb, he called me forth. I couldn't resist the life-giving Savior.

Every Scripture from "In the beginning" to "the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all. Amen," speaks of God's divine sovereignty in the affairs of men. He is infinitely wise, only he knows why he elects some unto salvation. He is infinitely holy, none of us deserve our salvation. He is infinitely loving, and he pours his mercy on whom he will have mercy. It is his prerogative. He is infinitely just, and Jesus satisfied his justice for us.

Whether we are reformed or Arminian, we should hallow his name for the fact that Christ has paid it all. I've been encouraged in other posts by some of you with whom I have deep differences. We are still members of the body of Christ.

Reformed theology, that of Calvin and Knox and Luther and Edwards and Spurgeon, takes the big "I" out of the blessed salvation that God has graciously given. Brethren, let's remember "that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved." That is the only requirement.

SDG,

Dave

 2008/1/20 18:04Profile
Lawevangelis
Member



Joined: 2004/10/9
Posts: 97
Justin, TX

 Re:

As adamant as everyone is here about their doctrinal position (or non-position, in some cases), all of this discussion misses the biggest issue in the error of these SBC "evangelists" thinking.

They think that an evangelist is someone who preaches the Gospel in a church building to church members and a few of their unsaved friends. They are bemoaning their fate like the dinosaurs might have, if they could speak, before they went extinct.

Ephesians 4 teaches that an evangelist equips the church to do the work of the ministry of evangelism.

My point is if these guys really want to do evangelism, why don't they go out on the streets and preach? Why do they need a church building? If they want to be evangelists, why don't they start teaching churches to do evangelism? If they had been doing that all along, maybe the churches wouldn't have gone seeker sensitive so quickly.

Blessings,

Jon


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Jon Speed

 2008/1/20 19:48Profile
davyman
Member



Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

Quote:

Lawevangelis wrote:
As adamant as everyone is here about their doctrinal position (or non-position, in some cases), all of this discussion misses the biggest issue in the error of these SBC "evangelists" thinking.

They think that an evangelist is someone who preaches the Gospel in a church building to church members and a few of their unsaved friends. They are bemoaning their fate like the dinosaurs might have, if they could speak, before they went extinct.

Ephesians 4 teaches that an evangelist equips the church to do the work of the ministry of evangelism.

My point is if these guys really want to do evangelism, why don't they go out on the streets and preach? Why do they need a church building? If they want to be evangelists, why don't they start teaching churches to do evangelism? If they had been doing that all along, maybe the churches wouldn't have gone seeker sensitive so quickly.

Blessings,

Jon



Jon,

I agree with you. But I want to take it a step or two further. Are these evangelists afraid that people aren't going to be saved, or are they afraid that the doctrinally sound preachers being trained by SBC sems will exhort their members to do the work of evangelism, thus cutting them out? They lament that these "Calvinists" don't see the need for evangelism, yet the graduates say they have a stronger urge to evangelize.

To adhere to reformed theology one must adhere to sola scriptura. Scripture teaches "how will they hear without a preacher?"

Those of us with a reformed theology love to evangelize. We want to see mankind saved. We don't know whom God elects, so we must scatter seed everywhere. What we don't do is appeal to emotions or lead people in a contrived prayer. Either God speaks to a person's heart through the preaching of the gospel or he doesn't. Our job in evangelism is to sow the seed. God gives the increase.

SDG,

Dave

 2008/1/21 8:11Profile





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