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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA


A quote from the article by Cooper P. Abrams, III that Katy posted:

“I am fast coming to believe that Calvinism is actually a cult”.

And a quote from Charles H. Spurgeon:

“Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else”.

I guess this debate will continue for some time.

The way one person explains Calvinism…I agree.

The way the next person explains Calvinism…I think its heresy.


 2008/1/14 17:37Profile

Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83



Katy-did wrote:
Here is an article that may be of great help in understanding both Calvinism and Armenian.

From the perspective of a Bible Believing Christian who is neither.

Love in Christ

PS: and Jeff, this may be the answers you are looking for and have been asking...even with your recent thread.

My grandma was from Armenia and I'm a Calvinist so I guess I'm an Armenian Calvinist. I thought the article was heavy handed toward the Arminian camp. All of the citations were in his section on Arminianism. The writer was wrong on his statement that Calvin developed the "Calvinist" system of soteriology. I would argue that it was Paul, clearly seen in the books of Romans and Ephesians. But Augustine certainly was a proponent of election loooong before Calvin. Calvin spent far less time on the doctrine of election during the reformation than did Luther. This article was hardly a scholarly work.

I admit there are some hard things about the doctrine of election to understand. I've just read Tozer's attempt to reconcile the conflict. Even his great understanding doesn't reconcile the debate.

On the original article about the SBC, I found it interesting that there was both concern felt about the lack of, even apathy toward, evangelism; yet in the same article, the young "Calvinists" were quoted as saying they felt more zeal for evangelism and missions. The heart of a true Christian, whether A or C, should always go out to the hell-bound. We are, after all, the same except for the grace of God.



 2008/1/14 18:47Profile



ChrisJD wrote:
EDIT: Post deleted.

My comments were not appropriate or eddifying.

I appologise if they offended anyone at all.

moe_mac 2008 01/14 17:50
I think the main thing all should be most concerned about is if they were truth and they were not spoken.

 2008/1/14 18:50

Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL


When I studied North Korean Nuclear Diplomacy in University one of my professors once said something that clarified a lot of things for me. He had grown up in North Korea before Kim Il Sung became it's defacto ruler and later fled to the South before eventually coming to the United States to teach at a University in Texas.

He said, 'If you're not a communist in your youth you don't have a heart, if you're still a communist in your old age you don't have a brain.'

For a young idealistic person communism has a certain heart attraction, for a person with more wisdom it proves to be more repulsive.

I think Calvinism and Arminianism are the same way. I would say, 'If you're not an Arminian in your youth you have no heart, if you're not a Calvinist in your old age you have no brain.' It doesn't fit exactly the same way, but the point is the same. If you want to be an effective minister of the gospel, sometime you have to stop thinking and start doing -be obedient to the Word of God, even when it contradicts theology.

But when you're ready to move from spiritual milk to spiritual meat, the you can start chewing on some doctrines like Calvinism... and appreciating what is positive about them, and spitting out the grizzle.

I certainly would get a stomach ache if I drank as much spoiled milk or ate as much grizzle as some of those theologians in the camps out there. There needs to be a balanced diet, and we also need to know when what doctrines we're eating into aren't good for us, or could turn us away from God's will for us.

PS. this is my 777th post, so it must have an extra measure of grace and wisdom.

Ian Smith

 2008/1/14 19:06Profile

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


hi, when you weep over the poor sin sick,drug ridden,mentally sick homeless people you minister to;and see them cry out to God for help,you see them pray for salvation to come in their lives,you tend to believe in eternal security or you will be overcome by greif and the sufferings of your congrgation. Jesus is either the saviour or not. some people don't know who their parents are, who they are... if not for the holiness of Christ there is none here.jimp

 2008/1/14 19:12Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


Funny how that article does not even go into the history behind the Doctrines, and fails to speak of how the Arminians were rebelling against the Church of their day. The Articles of remonstrance brought by the Arminian men were what brought the response from the Synod Of Dort, which was the Five points of Calvinism, as they were in response to the five points of the Remonstrants(Arminians).

Again, it never ceases to amaze me how people will ignorantly write articles as if the ideas of Calvinism or Sovereign Grace were "new". However they start with the words, "In the beginning God.."

Again, someone needs to let these men know that leaving off key elements that led to these doctrines only show the inability to simply stick to Scripture. Personal attacks upon Calvin, or even Arminius do not do anything to establish or deny the truth or lack thereof in either view.

patrick heaviside

 2008/1/14 19:49Profile

Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


I erred. Paul didn't "develop" the doctrine of election, he more clearly defined it. I have a friend who is rabbi emeritus of the local orthodox Jewish temple. I wrote a refutation of Open Theism a while back and quoted him: "a man does not injure a finger without the Lord first ordaining it." Imagine, a Jewish Calvinist!



 2008/1/14 19:58Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


A quote from the article by Cooper P. Abrams, III that Katy posted:

Interesting quote. Cooper must not be familiar with the definition of a Christian cult, as I received it in bible college. They drilled into us that, "A cult is any group or groups of person who profess to be orthodox while denying any of the central, essential doctrines of the Christian faith."

I would like to see which of the essentials of the faith Mr. Cooper thinks the "five points" deny?

As for those who claim to be [b]neither Calvinist of Arminian[/b], I must with all love state that [b]this is invalid.[/b] I will remind everyone that this was once my position as well, but now see the impossibility of maintaining such a nonexistent stance...

[b]Either you do or do not [/b]believe in unconditional election, which is not based upon any foreseen works, choices, or merit, but is solely decreed out of God's mysterious love in Christ for specific individuals.

[b]Either you do or do not[/b] believe in the depravity of man, which is his unchangeable unwillingness to ever repent unto faith unless he is first regenerated by God's Spirit.

[b]Either you do or do not[/b] believe in irresistible grace, which is the "inward call" given to the "few chosen" which "quickens them to life that were dead in trespasses and sins", changing them into "new creations" through "birth of the Spirit"; and is more than the common call of grace which is always willfully resisted and finally rejected by those who have not been elected.

[b]Either you do or do not[/b] believe in particular redemption, which affirms that Christ's death brought benefits for all and is offered for all, but which completely atoned only for those who were elected unconditionally according to grace before time. [Isa 53, John 16 & 17, Hebrews 1&10]

[b]Either you do or do not[/b] believe in the perseverance and preservation in faith of the saints, which confirms that one-hundred percent of those who are born again will be glorified with Christ at the resurrection of the just, nor will any of them ever finally apostatize from the faith.[John 6, Romans 8] Those who apostatize were false converts and were never born again. [1 John 2.]

Carefully and honestly considered, these points stand and fall together, with *perhaps* some disagreement regarding Particular Redemption, though most reformed individuals will stress that there is no real argument - five points, or no points.

My purpose is not to be contentious, but to disperse the ambiguity which adds to confusion. If you can say you believe in at least four of the points, Calvinists will accept you. Anything else and you will by default have only only one option, Arminianism.

 2008/1/14 23:54Profile

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752


Does anyone know how I can make one of these smiley faces a box? :-)


 2008/1/15 0:03Profile

Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991


I myself are a ONE-pointer in this sect called Christianity, our one and only point is

1. Jesus Christ

Calvinism and the rest, I have come to believe it is one of satans deceptions in these last says to hinder belivers to look at what is really important. In many cases. the truth is most calvinists are lost, most arminians are lost, most protestants are lost. Most people in america, Sweden that profess Christ is lost. They are only Christian in name and do not live so otherwise. You can quote doctrines and quotes, but when we all find ourselfes in a prison cell and being tortured, and like wurmbrant aftyer 14 years you have forgot the entire bible, the only thing that is important is Christ, do you know him. Your doctrine is worthless, even if it is the idol Calvin than some call him. To me people come running to his rescue and try "defend" him, God dont need defending the true gospel.

The bible says God wants all people saved, any one who says different either cant read or are twisting scripture like satan. it says ALL MEN. Read it have faith in it. Cant you get it? accept your finite mind can never grasp God

1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Calvinism makes God so small, calvinism robs God of his glory and humans try box God in.


 2008/1/15 2:05Profile

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