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ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

[b][color=000000] For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [i]unto him[/i]. [/color][/b]


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/13 22:30Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

EDIT: Post deleted.


My comments were not appropriate or eddifying.

I appologise if they offended anyone at all.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/13 22:32Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

When I consider the missionary and evangelical zeal of Paul Washer, David Brainerd, William Carey, Spurgeon, Joseph Alleine, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, MacArthur, Hudson Taylor, Jonathan Edwards, and a host of others who held to Calvin's understanding of Paul's teaching of Sovereign Grace, I cannot help but expect that the problem SBC is experiencing is not with "Calvinism" itself but is with those who misunderstand it.

For myself I may say that since becoming a so-called "five pointer" I have far greater zeal for missions and evangelism, and my reliance is more fixed upon God.

 2008/1/14 3:24Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re: Evangelists lament Calvinism, SBC trends

Quote:
JACKSON, Tenn. (BP)--A group of 15 evangelists meeting in Jackson, Tenn., Jan. 7-8 said they have concerns about the growth of Calvinism and the rise of a Willow Creek-style of non-confrontational evangelism within Southern Baptist churches.



This is also the story of the Brethren in Christ church. For the last 20 years Calvinism has been creeping into the church which was once moored in the influences of the Moravian, Anabaptist, and Wesleyan ways. With the growth of this influence, this particular denomination has suffered and has grown more liberal. This denomination is now growing more in likeness to a business enterprise. And after reading up on the emergent church, which began under the influence of Peter Drucker, a business guru of the past, many churches seek to be like Willowcreek and Saddleback.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2008/1/14 8:24Profile
iansmith
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Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

theopenlife,

As someone studying missions I do have to admit that there are many people who hold Calvinistic views who are very zealous for missions... but I would say that the vast majority of people who hold to reformed doctrine are trending towards hyper-calvinism.

This study wasn't about the effects of calvinism, but instead about calvinism taken to one of its many conclusions = apathy.

I have strong calvinistic views, just as Paul Washer. But I liked something that Paul Washer once said, he said that in his prayer closet he was a Calvinist, but if he had to pick ten men to start a church with, he would pick the ten most Arminian men he could find.

In the prayer closet I'm reformed, but when I'm talking to someone about Jesus I'm an Arminian. Traditionally the evangelical zeal in the Baptist church has been Arminian, and we're losing that evangelical zeal as many of our young men are shifting towards hyper-calvinism, I think there's a link, I've seen it in my own SBC church.

Young men would rather study doctrine than tell someone the good news... its a scary day.


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Ian Smith

 2008/1/14 10:07Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

theopenlife wrote:
When I consider the missionary and evangelical zeal of Paul Washer, David Brainerd, William Carey, Spurgeon, Joseph Alleine, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, MacArthur, Hudson Taylor, Jonathan Edwards, and a host of others who held to Calvin's understanding of Paul's teaching of Sovereign Grace, I cannot help but expect that the problem SBC is experiencing is not with "Calvinism" itself but is with those who misunderstand it.

For myself I may say that since becoming a so-called "five pointer" I have far greater zeal for missions and evangelism, and my reliance is more fixed upon God.



but you have just as nice of a "line-up" on the other side... these are just names to back up our belifs, we could say Wesley,Finney,Tozer,Keith Daniel, Ravenhill for example on the other side....

Both sides have truths.

ignoring them, any of them is not being true to scripture. I Myself dont know, I know Finney was such a man of God people fell on their faces before he even opened his mouth, I love the puritan writings and some of the calvinist old preachers, I love Wesley to. I see truth from all... and to say ex Keith Daniel has wrong doctrine or Tozer or Ravenhill... I dont know what to say to such people, other then i feel sorry for them


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/1/14 13:29Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re: Evangelists lament Calvinism, SBC trends

Has anyone who holds the view that believing the doctrine of sovereign election leads to apathy in evangelism got a theory on why the greatest missionaries, preachers, evangelists and revivalists of all time held the same doctrinal belief?

Brainerd, Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, Bunyan, Carey, George Mueller, McCheyne, Evan Roberts.

The lack of zeal and commitment to the unsaved lies not in the sovereignty of God but in the weakness of men.

If you want to question anything, question how all the Arminian zeal in the world is unable to account for the fact that, according to Leonard Ravenhill, only 2% of the church is saved, much less the world. The problem is not a lack of zeal but but a lack of knowledge ( ie., doctrine ).

 2008/1/14 13:29Profile
intrcssr83
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Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
by whyme on 2008/1/15 4:29:53

Has anyone who holds the view that believing the doctrine of sovereign election leads to apathy in evangelism got a theory on why the greatest missionaries, preachers, evangelists and revivalists of all time held the same doctrinal belief?

Brainerd, Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, Bunyan, Carey, George Mueller, McCheyne, Evan Roberts.

The lack of zeal and commitment to the unsaved lies not in the sovereignty of God but in the weakness of men.

If you want to question anything, question how all the Arminian zeal in the world is unable to account for the fact that, according to Leonard Ravenhill, only 2% of the church is saved, much less the world. The problem is not a lack of zeal but but a lack of knowledge ( ie., doctrine ).



Exactly.
While many may see a lack of zeal in pro-activity within ministery as a logical conclusion of belief in predestination, when one actually looks through the testimony of history, the argument becomes nothing more than a rationalistic Strawman without real factual support.


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Benjamin Valentine

 2008/1/14 15:44Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Has anyone who holds the view that believing the doctrine of sovereign election leads to apathy in evangelism got a theory on why the greatest missionaries, preachers, evangelists and revivalists of all time held the same doctrinal belief?

Brainerd, Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, Bunyan, Carey, George Mueller, McCheyne, Evan Roberts.

The lack of zeal and commitment to the unsaved lies not in the sovereignty of God but in the weakness of men.

If you want to question anything, question how all the Arminian zeal in the world is unable to account for the fact that, according to Leonard Ravenhill, only 2% of the church is saved, much less the world. The problem is not a lack of zeal but but a lack of knowledge ( ie., doctrine ).



some of the greatest preachers in history did not hold this doctrine. Just to keep the balance of truth here


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/1/14 15:55Profile









 Re:

Here is an article that may be of great help in understanding both Calvinism and Armenian.

From the perspective of a Bible Believing Christian who is neither.

http://www.bible-truth.org/election.htm

Love in Christ
Katy

PS: and Jeff, this may be the answers you are looking for and have been asking...even with your recent thread.



 2008/1/14 16:36





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