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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Roaringlamb, I'm confused...first you said we have no free will, and now you say



No need to be confused at all. Only those made willing will come. There is no contradiction or confusion.

Only those who are given the conviction of sin and need of Christ as Savior will come. Man cannot convict himself in a saving way, as he will try to work for his salvation, or scurry around feverishly to create some way that he can come to his idea of god. Anything and anyway he can apart from Jesus Christ. Whether it is by making himself more moral, or by attending church, or by giving to charities. But for a man to cast himself completely upon Christ alone is something that God works in His elect.

Quote:
Is this in perfect keeping with John 3:14-17



It absolutely is-
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth(or literally "that the believing ones") in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth(again, that the believing ones) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Of course it does well to note how John uses the word "world" in his writings. He uses it to speak of a wicked system of evil fallen men. The marvel of John 3:16 is not the "whosoever", but rather God's love for a wicked mankind being demonstrated by Him sending His only begotten Son to die for some within that world.

Quote:
Men in the wilderness who had sinned were not given supernatural abilities to first believe thereupon looking at the serpent on the pole. Nor is anyone forced to look up.



No, but we are dealing with whole other issue here, and that is faith in the crucified One. The serpent was a type of course, and many refused to look upon it and be healed.

However Jesus Himself said that NO MAN CAN come to me unless the Father draws him. So now you either choose to follow your previous way of interpreting Scripture and take this literally as you have with other portions, or you suddenly shift in your hermeneutic to make it appealing to man.

I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said there, no man can. No need to speculate about what He may or may not have been saying. No man can unless something happens first.

Quote:
Are men robots



Yes, and they only serve sin and Satan until they are set free by Christ. After they are regenerated, they are like Adam in a sense, able to either sin or not sin. But natural man is a robot to his master which is sin.

Quote:
has God given men the ability to reason



Men may reason all they like, but reason alone is not sufficient to be saved.

Romans 1 tells us all about those who see that there is a God, but rather than serve Him properly, they invent all kinds of deities and worship and serve the creature because the natural mind cannot come to Christ.

Romans 2 tells us of men having the law written on their heart, but then they use that as a means to justify themselves rather than seek God's righteousness through Christ.

The Law is natural to man, and man will continue to think he is climbing the ladder into Heaven by his deeds until he "sees" that Christ alone is God's prescribed means of acceptance. This is why the Gospel is to be preached, and why faith comes by hearing the message of God's forgiveness in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

All who believe that He did this for them receive a righteousness from outside of themselves that makes it as if they had done all God required themselves. That is indeed good news.

Yet many by their "reason" will reject this because they do not understand God's "foolishness", and they will say that they do not believe that God would act in such a way, or something similar because it offends them that they are not able to be righteous on their own apart from Jesus Christ.

Quote:
His sovereign will room for men to make choices out of a God given conscience to reason.



You really must make up your mind here. If God is sovereign, then nothing is outside of His rule. Men make all kinds of choices, for instance I can choose what I want for breakfast right now, and exercise my "free will".

But one cannot use a non existing free will to come to Christ as a natural man's will is enslaved to sin and satan.

I believe you confuse the ability to choose natural things with the ability to choose Christ, and there could nothing further from the truth. Natural man will NEVER choose Christ, but instead create other ways and means of acceptance with God. The words that Christ spoke to Peter apply to all ho believe, "Blessed art thou Simon bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven."

Also if you do not understand the implications of the fall of man and original sin, it will be very difficult to see how wicked and corrupt men really and truly are. Thus the marvel of the Gospel is that God would save any at all!

Quote:
Choose this day who you will serve
Choose life or death



Yes but these words were spoken to the covenant people of that day-Israel, and not to unbelieving nations around them. And again we are dealing with something entirely different in coming to Christ.

I may tell my brother, "choose you this day if you will give birth or not."

Now in one sense, it is absolutely impossible for him to bear children(I think you know why:-P ) but the truth is that if he became pregnant, he could give birth. So one truth and another seemingly opposite truth coincide with one another.

Consider the revelation that Israel was rejecting when these words were uttered as well. Would not reason give these people the "ability" to choose what they could see before them(the cloud and pillar of fire).


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/20 13:08Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3305
Texas

 Re:

So is someone saying here we are not born with a free will? man I wished some here had the ability to splain this stuff to us like we were little children, man some of this stuff I would have to take to Jesus to help explain to me, hey thats an idea! :-P


_________________
Bill

 2008/1/20 13:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Are men robots



Roaringlamb,

ALL your answers are learned doctrine. You all must have the same handbook of answers...all giving the same answer :-P

So, rather then be bored with the obvious pat answers [u]again[/u] I will ask you to consider this.

You used the definition of whosoever will I gave out of strong’s, but again gave the Calvin SPIN on the definition not found in scripture...only in Calvinism.

Your definition does not apply or make sense when used in place of all scripture using whosoever will.

The sign of a cult is this as well. .....using scripture words and giving it your own definition. This is why so many actually believe Mormons are Christians. They use the same lingo etc, but when probed deeper for their meaning....aaawwwww there it comes out...we're not talking the same thing...words maybe, but different definitions.


Were Adam and Eve before they sinned ROBOTS?

You say or must say yes, because there is not scripture stating we became robots after sin entered the world. How can a robot be deceived or tempted?

I've seen my children play with dolls and toy shoulders...robots, carrying on the conversations of all sides. Is this what we are....carrying on all sides of GOD? Then you say God is evil? Or God temps man with Evil? Yet, James 1 perfectly and most definitely states this is a lie. God cannot tempt with sin, but we are tempted when WE are carries away with our own lists and desires.

SO, If Adam and Eve were Robots, how can they be carried away with their OWN lists and desires? Now I know Eve was Deceived, not Adam, but Adam out of HIS OWN FREE WILL chose to die with Eve.

Each made a choice out of different reasons......yet were they not sinless, perfect beings to begin with?

So, if SIN has blinded our eyes that we cannot make a choice, and Adam & Eve were at that time without sin...yet made a choice how gives?

Are you also saying that once one becomes saved (NOW IN CHRIST) that it is impossible for that person to sin, because again we are ROBOTS? If we are, there would be sinless perfection in every Saint? So you are a Holiness Calvinist as well?

Or are you saying now that you are saved NOW God has given you a free will to obey or disobey? Why would He give you a free will now to disobey? Unless you are saying you have never ever since being saved disobeyed?????

Can you attest to that? If so, then you are according to 1st John a liar and the truth is not in you.


Edited:
If an unregenerate person in the OT had the ability to have FAITH in the Promises of God without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,is it not that SAME Faith an unregenerate person today can have in the very same promise that Jesus Christ died for our sin. We see the actual that they only saw far off. Why can't we have that same ability to have faith in believing Jesus died for our sin in the NT? You say WE need extra help in doing so?

SOOOOOO, are you saying somewhere in scripture the definition of FAITH has changed?

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and OT Saints also had been given the substance of things hoped for. Yes, we do have more light today, and the Promise of Genesis 3:15 has been realized in our day, but they put the same faith in the same substance of things hoped for....salvation...redemption, and were rewarded for that faith...please see Hebrews 11.

Love in Christ
Katy




 2008/1/20 14:14
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Your definition does not apply or make sense when used in place of all scripture using whosoever will



My definition, if it goes against the original usage of the word is wrong. The Greek word "pas" was used to point to all of a whole. You can't change, and neither can I. This is how it was used in the Koine Greek in both secular writings and sacred.

We can't just decide what it means now, and erase what the original author's intention.

Quote:
Were Adam and Eve before they sinned ROBOTS?



No, because sin had not entered the human race. They were free to sin, or not to sin. But their sin has erased the ability of man to come to God on his own apart from the work of God in them first.

It's funny because you can easily observe the fact that men will not come to Christ unless God does something first. It is easily observable to see that men would rather have a god of their own invention and their own way of self righteousness apart from Christ.

No cult teaching, or man's doctrine, simply the Scriptural principle of how man reacts to God's revelation through nature and law. Neither of which is enough to save a man, if it was, the Pharisees would have been heralded by Christ and not scorned for their self reliance.

Quote:
Are you also saying that once one becomes saved (NOW IN CHRIST) that it is impossible for that person to sin, because again we are ROBOTS? If we are, there would be sinless perfection in every Saint? So you are a Holiness Calvinist as well?



Nope, we are not robots once we are saved. But now there are two principles within us- the old Adam, and the Holy Spirit. These two will war with each other until the day I am glorified.

Because I am Christ's, His Holy Spirit convicts me when I sin, and the Father chastens me to bring about repentance.

Quote:
Or are you saying now that you are saved NOW God has given you a free will to obey or disobey? Why would he give you a free will now to disobey? Unless you are saying you have never ever since being saved disobeyed?????



It is because the old and the new are together, that I can obey or disobey God. His Spirit in me will make obey Him, not perfectly as there is and will be only One who did that.

The Spirit that God gives is a holy spirit, and works to conform us to the image of Christ. But the flesh is never done away with, thus the warfare of desiring to do the law with our minds, but doing contrary acts by our flesh. Of course those who are God's will be chastened and brought to repentance.

Actually, I sin all the time. I don;t love my neighbor as myself, I don;t love God with ALL of my mind, heart etc. Thus on these two alone, I am in trouble, and thus need a constant Mediator between God and myself.

Anyone who thinks they can perfectly fulfill the law in and of themselves is in for a rude awakening, and I hope God awakens them.

It's pretty simple actually.

Maybe you could address the other points I brought up, and find some answers to your questions.

I'll tell you though, much of what I believe is more Lutheran(if I have to give it a name)than anything, so much of it will not jive with modern evangelical thinking.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/20 15:02Profile









 Re:


Roaringlamb, this is the heart of it all, and this is and ws the final substance of what I was saying.

We are saved by grace through Faith.

A promise of the redeemer was immediately stated after the sin of Adam & Eve....they placed their FAITH in this promise.

We too place our faith in this promise.


If an unregenerate person in the OT had the ability to have FAITH in the Promises of God without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,is it not that SAME Faith an unregenerate person today can have in the very same promise that Jesus Christ died for our sin. We see the actual that they only saw far off. Why can't we have that same ability to have faith in believing Jesus died for our sin in the NT? You say WE need extra help in doing so?

SOOOOOO, are you saying somewhere in scripture the definition of FAITH has changed?

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and OT Saints also had been given the substance of things hoped for. Yes, we do have more light today, and the Promise of Genesis 3:15 has been realized in our day, but they put the same faith in the same substance of things hoped for....salvation...redemption, and were rewarded for that faith...please see Hebrews 11.



Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/20 15:12
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:

Only those who are given the conviction of sin and need of Christ as Savior will come.

According to your theology/doctrine, the conviction of sin that was unavoidable to begin with, and whith a "sin nature" that god imposed on his creation through Adam.

Concerning those who HE will not give the conviction of sin are doomed from before birth.

Quote:
Man cannot convict himself in a saving way, as he will try to work for his salvation, or scurry around feverishly to create some way that he can come to his idea of god.

According to your theology/doctrine, they can not even get an "idea of God" through HIS Word.

Quote:
But for a man to cast himself completely upon Christ alone is something that God works in His elect.

Poor soles that were created for the sole purpose of being destroyed in hell(non-elect), God will never let them cast themselves completely upon Christ.

You will say that God does not have an obligation because they are sinful, according to your theology/doctrine, He is the one who made sure of that thith the "federal headship of Adam".

Quote:
The marvel of John 3:16 is not the "whosoever", but rather God's love for a wicked mankind being demonstrated by Him sending His only begotten Son to die for some within that world.

What love is that?
He does not even love the whole world.

According to your theology/doctrine, HE created some of the world to be condemed(for his good plesure).

Quote:
No, but we are dealing with whole other issue here, and that is faith in the crucified One.

That no one may have unless this so called god chooses to give.

Quote:
The serpent was a type of course, and many refused to look upon it and be healed.

According to your theology/doctrine, they have no choice because God refuses to "regenerate them.

Quote:
However Jesus Himself said that NO MAN CAN come to me unless the Father draws him. So now you either choose to follow your previous way of interpreting Scripture and take this literally as you have with other portions, or you suddenly shift in your hermeneutic to make it appealing to man.

Your way of interpreting Scripture makes no sence at all.
This god that you describe is neither good nor merciful or even gracious. He definatly is not all loving. Sure he has wrath, but that is just so he has an excuse for not loving.

Your way of interpreting Scripture makes God out to be a devilish tyrant. No wonder that athiest off the street hates GOD. I hate the god that you describe, I don't blame them.

Quote:
I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said there, no man can.

Because of the "sin nature" that HE Himself imposed upon them by the "federal headship of Adam".

Quote:
Men may reason all they like, but reason alone is not sufficient to be saved.

Isaiah 1:18-20

Quote:
All who believe that He did this for them receive a righteousness from outside of themselves that makes it as if they had done all God required themselves. That is indeed good news.

But, no one can believe unless god lets them.

Quote:
Yet many by their "reason" will reject this because they do not understand God's "foolishness",

I thought you said that will reject this because because God chooses not to "regenerate" them.
So it is not because of their "reason" that they will reject it, but because God will not let them accept it.

Quote:
You really must make up your mind here. If God is sovereign, then nothing is outside of His rule. Men make all kinds of choices, for instance I can choose what I want for breakfast right now, and exercise my "free will".

But one cannot use a non existing free will to come to Christ as a natural man's will is enslaved to sin and satan.

What is the point of preaching and prayer if God has made up his mind who is "elect" or not?

Quote:
Also if you do not understand the implications of the fall of man and original sin, it will be very difficult to see how wicked and corrupt men really and truly are. Thus the marvel of the Gospel is that God would save any at all!

I gave you the implications of your interp of the fall of man and original sin in my first post ant the one before this one.
You still refuse to explain them.

 2008/1/20 15:35Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
We are saved by grace through Faith.



Yep and I would never debate that.

But it seems that most people today have a different definition for the terms involved.

Some would say that their faith saves them. Well, technically, no it does not. It is the object of their faith that saves them, namely Jesus Christ and His finished work for them.

Too many have faith in faith, but not in Christ, and thus they trust their own works to save them(not saying faith is a work, that is another discussion). They are eerily similar to those whom Christ speaks of as saying, "Lord, Lord didn't we do this, and that..."

Other folks who say we are saved by grace equate grace with "a little help" so we can do the rest.

It is as if they see a ladder to Heaven, and decide they will climb it on their own, only to find the bottom rung is broken. So Jesus becomes the one who lifts them up past the broken rung, and now they can get on their way to Heaven by their own works.

They have sadly fallen back into a medieval Roman Catholic view of grace- "do your best, and God will take care of the rest." Grace exists to help me start the Christian life, or help me when I am in need, but the rest I am perfectly able to accomplish.

Saddest of all, this view then tells the person that unless they are sanctified completely, they are not justified either. That lie has crept into the vast majority of so called Protestant Churches, because the definitions became so blurred.

So that is why we may go round and round, and round. Because everyone has different meanings for the same words. But unfortunately someone must be right and someone must be wrong.

The Bible itself applied to personal experience and observation have led to the concrete convictions I have. I have told many others before that I became a "Calvinist" before I had ever read anything by Calvin.

I only use the term to define the doctrines I hold to, and in light of our discussion.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/20 15:40Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
You still refuse to explain them.



No, you just did not like what I said.

Can something be free and a slave at the same time?

Logic here are three truths that exist
1)God is holy
2)God is sovereign
3)Sin exists

So you will have to wrestle these through on your own, but you cannot remove one to ease the others.

And again, you still have not explained to me how your all-loving God can create people that he knows will not choose him, and still send them to hell? Aren't they being created just to go to hell too?

Shouldn't God, if He is to be "fair" give faith to all men, and save all men, because he loves all men?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/20 15:59Profile









 Re:



Thank you Roaringlamb,

Actually I gave the definition of faith and towards who and what. So, going and beating round the bush really didn't answer the question at hand.

I agree with the many comments you made here, but you evaded my point blank question.

Why?

Because we don't need any more help today then those in Hebrews 11 needed in their day.

Aren't you thankful for those examples in Hebrews 11...and the definition of faith.

We too still await a promise of our complete redemption. So there are things we have not actually realized in our own time.

We are sanctified by faith..yet still realizing the actual day by day process of that sanctification.

We haven't seen the second coming of Christ yet, but we walk by faith believing in something we have not actually realized.

By faith we believe we are not called to God's wrath, because He took our wrath upon Him, yet yes, many seem to miss there too.

By faith we don't know yet what we wll be, but we know that we willbe like Him, for we shall see Him as He is...not realized yet...yet we hope, because we have this hope in us.

So we live in hope of the fulfillment of promises not yet realized, because God cannot lie, and we believe this to be true.

I could go on, but I agree, we do not live by faith in faith, and OT Saints did not either.....that is a modern day twist brought to you by ...well, the first time I heard this one was Kenneth Copeland and Co! I immediately knew this was a lie. Praise GOD!



Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/20 16:05
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3305
Texas

 Re:

Wow! this thread has gone astray, I do know and believe and no one would ever in a million years change my mind that we "all" are born with a free will, which means a free will to accept or deny Christ and if you deny him you will end up in Hell and if you accept him as your Lord and Savior you will end up in Heaven, that the bottom line as for as I am concerned and thats in stone in my mind and heart. :-)


_________________
Bill

 2008/1/20 16:08Profile





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