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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sorry to rehash

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"Whosoever will may follow me!"

I am so sorry I gave a shortened version..
Here ChrisJD:

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Night ChrisJD!


 2008/1/19 22:55

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi Katy-Did,

In Mark 8:34 it reads as if those are conditions for following Him, [b]not the qualifications for being able to do so[/b].

He did not say, whosever will [b]may[/b] come after Him, if they will.

Is that what you are implying was said?

And I asked you about the two verse that were qouted before. Which you responded to with your statement.

Here they are again,

[b][color=660000] Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [/color][/b]

[b][color=660000] If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honor. [/color][/b]

Have a good night.

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/19 23:15Profile



Are you building a whole doctrine around one verse at the expense of the whole bible?

There is a name for that called verse snathers.

IF any man serve me, let him follow me??? Is this a condition or qualification for being able to?


I will state with you as others have on these threads. We will have to agree to disagree.

I will not change my mind. You cannot change my mind.

I will not go tat for tat, and toe to toe with you over this issue.

Please stop stalking me around the threads with your one liners. I am asking you nicely to step back.

You may state what you believe, and I will do the same.

Rather then stalking me with one liners, please use your time to contribute what you believe and why.

The issue of Calvinism is and will always be in question by many wonderful teachers and believers.

I don't have to give an account to you why I do not believe in CAlvinism. I simply don't, and have stated my reasons in depth many times here.

Your one verse wonder is taken out of context.

This will be my last reply back to you.

Love in Christ

 2008/1/19 23:35

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi katy-Did,

If I have spoken evil to you, or sinned against you, please tell me how.

Thank you.

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/19 23:44Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


3956 pas

Yes, and it is all of a whole. Or all of the ones believing, or all of the ones willing.

And it still does not imply the so called natural ability of man.

patrick heaviside

 2008/1/20 0:02Profile



Jeppe wrote:

Indeed God created people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them. This doesn't make God a monster.

...Their is a great difference in the future being fixed because God already knows what is going to happen.
And the future being fixed beacause God ordained what is going to happen and therefore also knows it.

The first lies the cause of men ending up in hell on men: God knew men would rebel but created them anyway, but in His mercy has offered Christ, whom he also knew many would reject (because of men doing his own pleasure and not Gods) leaving no other way than his wrath being poured out over them.
The second lies the cause of men ending up in hell on God ordaining them to hell: God not only knew they would rebel, but decreed they would rebel (according to Gods good pleasure) in order to cast them in eternal torment...

...just giving my 2cents on that post.. I've just recently began to make study on both views and can't yet put myself on one or the other side because of different bible verses, i hope i'm not wasting my time but pray God will guide me on the right path, which could also be neither Calvinism nor Arminianism.

One thing is for sure though: God is good, righteous, true, loving, merciful, allknowing allpowerfull and often way beyond our comprehension.

bless God,


Hi Jeppe!

After wrestling similarly with the two apparently opposing views, I eventually came to the conclusion that [i]both[/i] predestination and free-will are true.

But now I'm gradually realising that the truth may indeed be "neither" rather than "both".

Maybe God's foreknowledge is the key to the whole thing.

For example, a favourite text to "prove" predestination is the Lord's word to Pharaoh, quoted in Romans

Ex 9:16
[color=990000] And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.[/color]

Ro 9:17 [color=990000]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

However, "raised up" need not mean that Pharaoh was [i]created[/i] for this sole purpose!

The Hebrew in Exodus also carries the meaning "appointed".

The Greek translation quoted by Paul means (Strong's concordance) "to arouse, raise up (from sleep) rouse up, stir up, incite".

You could interpret the verses to mean that God already (of course) [i]knew[/i] that the man who became Pharaoh would rebel against Him and refuse to bow to the true God. In other words, Pharaoh [i][b]had already made his choice[/b][/i].

Therefore the Lord made use of the fact and merely confirmed him in his rebellion. In other words, Pharaoh's heart was already hard and beyond hope or even desire of repentance, so the Lord further hardened him, confirming his choice.

To me, that makes just as much sense as that pharaoh was preordained to hell. In fact, more sense because we cannot then accuse God of being a "monster".

Re free will, do we take seriously enough the fact that man was "made in God's image"?

However we define the exact boundaries of our likeness to Him at creation, it surely [i]has[/i] to include a measure of "self-determination", that is free will to go our own way instead of His way who made us?

Doesn't the Lord choose the way He will act? Doesn't He decide what He will do and it stands? So there has to be a measure of that in us.

Why the Lord "risked it" knowing what would happen I don't know, but, as has been said before, Love can't compel another to love Him. Love by its very nature sets others free to respond - or not - otherwise it ceases ot be love.

Certainly our salvation is all of His grace; certainly we cannot even repent and turn to Him of our own will or power. But that doesn't mean we have no free will at all, no say in whether we are headed for heaven or hell!

Maybe Jeremiah puts it most clearly:

Jer 31:18-19
[color=990000]18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: [i][b]turn thou me, and I shall be turned[/b][/i]; for thou art the LORD my God.

19 Surely [i][b]after that I was turned, I repented[/b][/i]; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

So it is [i]God[/i] who "turns" us, because we can't do it ourselves; but (apparently) [i]we[/i] who repent after being turned!



 2008/1/20 8:00


double posted??? sorry

 2008/1/20 8:16


Free will is a man pleasing myth. The will of all men is bound to their sinful desires, and until it is renewed, they will have no care whatsoever for Christ. They may love religion, and make up their own ways of approaching their idea of god, but it will not save them.

Roaringlamb, I'm confused...first you said we have no free will, and now you say
Yes, and it is all of a whole. Or all of the ones believing, or all of the ones willing.

Is this in perfect keeping with John 3:14-17.

Before Jesus uses the words whosoever will, He uses an example in the OT..and says, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must teh son of man be lifted up, that whosoever believes on me.....

So to get the complete depth of what Jesus is saying...not what man thinks he may be saying...we need to go back and read about that time...correct.......Jesus is asking man to use his conscience and ability to reason to conclude the definition of whosoever will. Men in the wilderness who had sinned were not given supernatural abilities to first believe thereupon looking at the serpent on the pole. Nor is anyone forced to look up.

And it still does not imply the so called natural ability of man.

I believe it does, based on John 3:14-17.

What about the other verses using whosoever, say regarding divorce?

Jesus said whosoever divorces his wife...... Now we know divorce is not God's will. What God had joined together, let no man put asunder.

So, why would Jesus appeal to their conscience of right or wrong concerning this subject, if man has no ability to do right to begin with.

Does this message of warning from Jesus to these men of Moses appeal to their own ability to reason the consequences through their conscience?

That is the real question.

Are men robots, or has God given men the ability to reason.

Many want to argue we have no free will, having something to do with interfering with God's sovereignty. However God built within His sovereign will room for men to make choices out of a God given conscience to reason.

Choose this day who you will serve
Choose life or death

Many instances we are given the right to choose, and each time **Choice** is presented, God also presents the consequences of the outcome of those choices.

Love in Christ

 2008/1/20 8:22

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


These are the logical conclusions to y'alls interp of the Bible.
No one has yet explained these.
To make the questions clearer, I emboldend the context.
Please give a piont by point explaination of each.
Give the rease why you can/will not.

[size=medium]1:[/size] [b]Some people make[/b] the Atonement to be only for a chosen few(the Elect) where [b]God[/b] is [b][size=medium]not[/size] ALL Loving and very finite in grace[/b]. In contrast which the Atonement is for all and is ALL Loving and infinite in grace.

[size=medium]2:[/size] [b]Please explain that God would Create sentient men[/b] that are the non-chosen, non-elect. These must be hated creations, [b]for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell.[/b] Therefore, man is doing that which he was created to do, that is to sin & yet, being condemd for it.
The non-elect have no grace to be saved because the Atonement is not for them.
They were never suposed to be saved in the first place, which makes them created only to be distroyed in hell.
Therefore, [b]they are not in hell for what they have done, but in hell for that wich they were created for.[/b]

[size=medium]3:[/size] [b]Please explain how[/b] that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.
[b]Man is condemned for that wich is unavoidable.[/b]

[size=medium]4:[/size] [b]Please explain how[/b] that one must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ. This theology makes God wrathful and hating man because GOD would not let them obey by not regenerating them.
[b]Man is guilty for what God will not do.[/b]

This puts the blame on God for not giving them the ability to obey the command to repent and to put his faith in/on Christ.

[size=medium]5:[/size] [b]Please explain why God would condemn man from the result of His own doing.[/b]
[b]Man is guilty for what God did.[/b]
This is God making man candemned before the crime of sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam".
By this, God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".

[size=medium]6:[/size] [b]Please explain why God would make a world with sin when HE could have made one that didn't.[/b]
This means that He chose the world that has sin over the one that didn't. This, in turn, means that He wanted sin to exist, & yet condemns for that which HE wills.

When the truth is that God could not have made a world woith out sin and not infringe on free will.
(He couldn't have made a world with no sin by making a world with no laws, God is not lawless)

[size=medium]7:[/size] Please explain how God wanted Adam to sin.
Some say this as true.

[size=medium]8:[/size] [b]Please explain how[/b] those who are pre-selected to hell in contraposition to the Elect, can not ever repent because [b]God refuses to give them the ability(regeneration) and condemns for it[/b].
(Man is guilty for what God pre-ordains to be.)

One more question.
[b]9:[/b] Do you think that it is GOD who rejects man, instead of man rejecting GOD?
[size=medium] . [/size]

 2008/1/20 10:46Profile


Here is an article that may be of great help in understanding both Calvinism and Armenian.

From the perspective of a Bible Believing Christian who is neither.

Love in Christ

PS: and Jeff, this may be the answers you are looking for and have been asking...even with your recent thread.

I had posted this on another thread a few days ago.

It will offend either side of the argument, depending on how deep in each side you come from.

I believe some very good points are made, from someone who works with Mormons, and had never heard of Calvinism or was introduced until he was all ready established in scripture.

There are various degrees of either side of this argument, and depending on who you talk to and theri beliefs, will determine your own comeback answers.

Cooper Abrams III is replying to both of these angles and from Calvinists who had approached him.

Jeff, you will not get the answers you are looking for here on SI.

Many of your questions have been answered, here and other threads, yet you will not listen or consider any of them....continually asking over and over.

YOU need to sit with the Lord and resolve these issues yourself.

The Lord said...Let us REASON TOGETHER.

So He has invited you personally to sit and reason together with Him His Word.

True conviction comes from the Lord, not the doctrines of men.

No one ( man) is required to EXPLAIN to you anything.

God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek HIM, not the wisdom of men.

The article is food for thought only. It's up to you to work through each point. Not for anyone to work through each point FOR you.

You stand or fall on your OWN convictions.

Paul laid the faoundation, but said be careful how you build upon that foundation.

Jesus Christ and Him Crucified IS the foundation...not the doctrine of Election.

Enough said!

Love in Christ

PS: Jeff, also pull up the comments people have made to Cooper Abrams concerning his article. Interesting insight into persons so engrained in this theology will also display cult like behavior. This is what Cooper meant by Calvinism being a cult. Having worked with Mormons and how cults do behave when confronted.

Walter Martin also worked with cults and will tell you the same.

We see the same spirit in the Emergent Church when confronted.

 2008/1/20 11:40

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