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Christinyou
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 Re:

Awake each morning and go forth with the Christ that is now your life and walking on this earth in you as Him. It is me in Christ awaking each morning and going forth as "The hope of Glory", that is "Christ in you".

Without Paul's epistles which God gave Him through Jesus Christ for us, to fulfill His Word, we would still be hidden from the mystery now revealed to Paul, that mystery now in us; Jesus Christ

A son of God: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/1/13 18:47Profile
PaulWest
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 Re:

Dr. Wiersbe said that the Holy Ghost doesn't work in a vacuum. He needs substance, information, a seed from which He can work and effectuate. The writings of Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit are some of the approved material used to fill this vacuum. We ingest what Paul wrote, the Word of God, and what began with Spirit builds up our spirits and fruit comes forth. All of the words Paul wrote by God are profitable meat, food for the spirit, living and true and double-edged. The pen was Paul's but the Words are Gods, and Paul himself is God's pen, and Paul is in God.

Paul is indispensible, true from God, and because his doctrine came by revelation from God and God used it to fill two-thirds of the NT, I deem his doctine infallible, non-negotiable, and the utmost and exclusive standard for all Christians.

Any takers? :-)


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/13 19:02Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"""I hope no one takes the words of Paul and treats them like the Ten Commandments that we wake each morning and "try" to live the words of Paul. God Forbid."""


Pauls word are much more than the ten commandments. They are eternal life and even more than that, we have become son's of God by the Christ that is in us.

I don't worship Paul, I worship God and Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit resurrection power given us by the Father, for giving these words to Paul for us to fulfill His Word.

What a Glory!!! Oh that we could see all that God has given us in Christ Jesus.

Eph 3:20 Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

"above all that we ask or think", WOW!!!!

Ephesians 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Do we really hear with the ears and see with the eyes that the Christ in us has brought to us by Birth from the Father, "Fulness of God".

1 Peter 1:21-23 Who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Who's faith and hope are we in? Who is the Word?

"Word of God"

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/1/13 19:16Profile
crsschk
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 Re: Paul .. John, Peter, Mark ...

Quote:
Paul is indispensible, true from God, and because his doctrine came by revelation from God and God used it to fill two-thirds of the NT, I deem his doctine infallible, non-negotiable, and the utmost and exclusive standard for all Christians.



Indeed!

I didn't intend to be too disparaging earlier but there is some past precedence in this regard. We have also seen in the past here a few that would pit Paul ... alone ... against everyone else or at least attempt to oddly discredit that which doesn't fit whatever fancy ... Redundant.

It seems just as odd to isolate Paul by making mention of him in this way, even if it is too seemingly be coming to his defense, he needs no defending! This is a seamless garment no matter if it be John, Peter, Paul, Matthew ...


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Mike Balog

 2008/1/13 19:54Profile
PaulWest
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 Re:

Quote:
he needs no defending! This is a seamless garment no matter if it be John, Peter, Paul, Matthew ...



Amen! The reason I am lavishing on the praise here for Paul, is not so much to isolate but to [i]validate.[/i] Paul, I realise, needs no more defense than the Bible itself. Though I would relish to validate also in my own feeble words Peter and James, Luke and John - had they been under similiar attack and speculation too. Not long ago my wife and I watched a religious documentary hosted by Dateline NBC or ABC or whatever (they're all the same!) concerning the Apostle Paul. Basically, all the show intended to do was show Paul as a bigot, a sexist, someone who completely butchered the teachings of Jesus Christ and tainted them by injecting his own personal convictions on homosexuality, women's rights, drinking, fornication - in short, all the stuff Jesus apparently had no qualms with. It is because of Paul - the documentary concluded - that fundamental Christianity is the self-righteous beast that it is today.

To verify this, they interveiwed several prominent men and women of the cloth who were all too quick to confirm this liberal concept. Note, these same clergymen and clergywomen also denied scripture inerrancy in the course of their interviews, showing these two trains of thought - i.e. Paul's corruption and the possible errancy of scripture - are intrinsically linked.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/13 20:22Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

"Who anointed Paul???"

Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Paul is called chosen because Christ had selected him, as he did his other apostles, for their service.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Ephesians 3:7-8 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

crsschk, are you saying that Pauls Gospel is the same as the old testament gospel? If so, why was it necessary for Jesus Christ to set him apart and teach Paul this particular Gospel of Grace through Faith being born again of Incorruptable Seed of God of the Father? If Paul had this Gospel from the old testament why did Jesus Christ have to reveal it to Paul?

Paul's gospel is completely different from the Gospel of Moses and even The Gospel of Jesus Christ offered to the House of Israel, who were His own and they received Him not. Paul went to them first and they would not hear or see, then he was sent to the Gentile who would hear.

Acts 28:23-29 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

That is why God gave Paul permission to call the revelation given to him as "My Gospel".

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Jesus was the seed of David by Mary, but He was raised according to Paul's Gospel, Not anyone else until it was given to Paul and he revealed it to the world.

That we might separate the old from the new, praise God.

Old things have passed away and behold all things have become new.

Separating the Soul from the spirit of Satan, and given a new Spirit of Christ in you. The Holy Spirit now in us not just with us. This is completely different from the old testament.

This will probably cause a great gulf and explosion in the body, but I don't see anyone born again in the old testament. I don't see Christ in anyone "the hope of Glory". I see Paul fighting his whole ministry given him by Jesus Christ to present this Gospel and reveal The new way of salvation. Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:5-13 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Did they have His rest? Do we have His rest?

2 Timothy 2:8-26 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Sorry but I had to ask.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/1/13 20:43Profile
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 Re: Who anointed Paul???

Quote:

Compton wrote:
Quote:
Did Paul overstep his bounds? For there are conflicts in what Paul said that conflict with what the other Apostles said, and even what Jesus said.

For those that love Paul and his message, please note that this is a question on doctrine, not an attack on Paul's message of Grace through Faith.



HI Rev,

Before we respond to the questions as you have framed them, I'm wondering if we shouldn't first address the the frame you are using. You have presented us with a perplexity. You say you are not disputing Paul's message of grace through faith, but yet you accept there is contrariety in his message as an apostle, even saying he has contradicted Jesus' teachings occasionally, (if only for sake of context.) You also feel that the message of grace though faith seems to be unique to Paul and not even understood by the other apostles. If his testimony seems contrary on even the smallest points, as well as unique and without collaboration, then it follows that this Gospel of grace could very well be a proprietary invention.

How do you get past this?

MC



MC,

Some people have suggested to me that, to the extent that Paul takes it in parts of his dissertations, that Grace and only Grace, is sufficient to please Jesus.

But Paul himself was perfectly aware that we must willingly bend ourselves to submit to Jesus, in Love, and obey in Love.

The Grace is sufficient to save us, else Christ is vain, and Calvary is a mockery.

But I do know that the Holy Spirit is continuously teaching us to obey as well, not to get saved, but to grow, and become like Jesus.

Standing still in Jesus is impossible, but too many take Grace to an extreme that I am sure Paul neither meant, nor encouraged, from my readings of his epistles.

And Paul is quite open about being a very faulty man, with a major pride problem. Having the same pride problem, and a huge thorn in my side to go with it, and understanding the very cosmopolitan Paul a little too well for my comfort, compared to the more earthy, and simplistic Apostles, like Peter and John, James and Matthew, who knew the Law of their fathers, and what Jesus taught them from an experiential point of view more than from an theoretical point of view, I can see how the Grace message resonates in our culture.

But let us not forget that Jesus is a Jew, and so were all the Apostles, and I for one do not want to dispense with what God gave to Moses, for Jesus fulfilled it.

And in our love for Jesus, we must look past the doctrinal dissertations back to what Jesus taught. And as our Paschal Lamb, He most certainly knew what Grace He was buying for us with His love. He asks us to love Him, and show it by obedience.

And as your question shows, for many, could they set the books of Paul aside for a time, and read only Jesus's first followers? Does every doctrinal question have to be asked and answered in Paul? Or will you not seek Grace elsewhere in the Old and New Testaments...and dispel the impression there is that without Paul, there is no Grace.


Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2008/1/14 22:59Profile
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 Re: Who anointed Paul???

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
"Lean not to your own understanding"

This seems to be a continuance of an older argument that comes down to authority and a certain dislike of it than one of supposed contradiction. I definitely feel the indignation start to rise up when the idea that Paul is somehow ... "[i]other than[/i]" the rest of the apostles or is in contradistinction or that he presents a 'take or leave or it' mentality that allows him to be challenged and by that I mean into disregard, as that often seems to be the idea of some. Take what I like, disregard the rest.



[color=993300]No. The contradictions between Paul's message to a gentile church, and the other Apostles is always answered by quotes from Paul or Luke.

These are real questions that are being asked me, and yes, perhaps it is an issue to them, of authority...I haven't asked.[/color]

Quote:
His unfortunate words against a women speaking in Church, when it was actually a Synagogue,(and Synagogues are very noisy places.)even though many women have spoken for God in the past. Still, Paul's words have been used against women for centuries...heavens, how many women have been killed for disagreeing with a man, much less a priest?



Quote:
I obey all these rules...by staying out of any churches.

I probably would not stay away from Churches if I were not disabled, but I would be hard put to find a church that is not already contaminated by the false doctrines out there, and there are many of those.



Quote:
Is this like the defiant child after being told to sit down utters to himself "[i]But I'm standing up on the inside![/i]" ?



[color=993300]Good question.

Since they are not my questions, but questions put to me, and to this august body, through me, because I would love to have the quotes to come back at these answers that are not from Paul, or Luke, Luke being suspect to some by virtue of his long friendship with Paul.

But oddly, everyone seeks to avoid the essential question in their outrage over 'an attack on Paul', when Paul is open to attack through what he said, as are the other Apostles, as well as you, me, and everyone who presumes to put Jesus' thoughts into descriptive passages.[/color]

Quote:
If I went to a church, and wanted to speak against some of the lamentable preaching out there, I would wear a head covering, because it would show that I meant business, and was taking the Lord for my covering, as I do in the rest of my life. And I would probably be evicted, or even arrested, for simply interrupting the service, and not just because I am a woman, but because our churches do not allow discussion, as synagogues, and the Temple did, and house churches now do.



Or might you do none of the above and recognize something back of and underneath it all.



[color=993300]If God is in back of our lamentable churches, I am not going to say so. I rather think the enemy is, and most certainly underneath them!

But because of the conventions demanded by men, and not by God, I would comply, in order to get a hearing.[/color]

Quote:
But many people question not the message of Paul, but his frequently odd behavior.



It is only odd if you deem it so and because it seems to disagree with the way you think things ought to be done. In essence you are setting up Paul as a straw man to try and knock him back down again, this is fallacious reasoning and suspect.


[color=993300]Since these are real questions from real people, and I am not able to answer them to my hearts content, this is not in any way a straw man.

I rarely put up a thread, much less ask what I know will be seen as offensive questions as 'straw men', merely to be knocked down by those more knowlegable than I, if that is what a 'straw man' means.

I am asking these questions not to be shouted down for asking them, nor to prove my scholarship, but to get the questions an acceptable answer.

And since Paul is being questioned, inerrancy, or even the real belief in Paul's teachings won't do. So Gill's answer to my question won't do either.

If I cannot answer these questions, except with a quote from Paul, I deem it a reasonable question, and so should all of us.[/color]

""For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (ROM 3:7)"

Come now, surely you do not supposed to extract this from the intention do you? How much of doing just this fit's your own accusations here, snatch a scripture and make an argument, rather an accusation;

Quote:
And since he admits he lies, it is a problem.



Quote:
Let this not be personal, but a true discussion of points that bother many people about Paul. And they do bother people...enough to lead them away from Christianity, or to doubt God's message.

And I am asking because I am asked these questions, and I'd like to have some really good answers...if there are any!



Glad that it is not personal and neither is mine. But is it not also true that you yourself are very bothered by these things, more so than the charge you are leveling that Paul would actually ... "[i]enough to lead them away from Christianity, or to doubt God's message.[/i]" That is patently absurd! Are we not again in the business of 'fixing the message' to assuage the hearers? Even the scripture you quoted and underlined;

15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; [b]even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; [u]in which are some things hard to be understood[/u], which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/b]

How remarkable that this proves the very point against your reasoning here.

Quote:
For those that love Paul and his message, please note that this is a question on doctrine, not an attack on Paul's message of Grace through Faith.



And by that you are making a distinction that Paul has a [i]different[/i] message than the rest. It's a straw man and doesn't exist except in wresting the scriptures.



[color=993300]The questions have been put forth to me, and I must answer them.

If I cannot get help from my brethern and sistern because they are too offended in me, then where am I to go?

These remarks to me or my attitude or behavior are illustrative of my very real life, and reactions, and are not recomendations or permissions given. It is how I live, in the way I must live.

But I would rather be answered, as I asked these questions, in all seriousness, and not from Paul.

Every answer I have is from Paul. If I get no others, I will have to toss Paul out, and I love the man and his works too much to want to do that.

But I do not have to agree with the societal constraints placed on the pagan society of the 1st Century by Paul. My altars are not set up to worship my god or goddess with sex, and I am too well broken, by Jesus, to worship money or power.

I need to agree with what Jesus taught, in Paul, and elsewhere. I don't mind in the least going by the Noahide Laws, plus modern convention for women old enough to be your mother or grandmother, and Jesus' love and mercy. Oddly, He does not demand near as much of me as you might do, being God, and knowing my heart.

Like all of the Christians out there that truly love Him, I am trying to learn to submit to Him, but I won't take your word for what I am to do if you cannot answer me outside of Paul. Because if Jesus and the other apostles didn't cover it, I am going to have to admit that Paul was in error.

And I have a lot more questions when the ones I first posed are answered, if anyone is willing to seriously answer them, and not make this a personal discussion.

The questions are seriously put forward.

Blessings,

Forrest[/color]


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Forrest Anderson

 2008/1/15 0:26Profile
Compton
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 Re:

Hi Rev,

Quote:
Or will you not seek Grace elsewhere in the Old and New Testaments...and dispel the impression there is that without Paul, there is no Grace.




The impression seemed to be yours. Remember it was you who said the other apostles didn't even grasp Pauls' Gospel of faith. You suggested there was uniqueness in Paul and disharmony from other scriptures, not I. As far as I was concerned, the Old Testament was written to be read with the anticipation of Christ.

You have no way of knowing any of those things you attributed to me. Please be at ease regarding any impressions you think I have, for they are only assumptions on your part.

In any case, I'm not worth debating this with. I'm hardly going to give you something you haven't already heard. Besides, I am pooped, and have no stamina to do any of this anymore.

Blessings sister. I mean it. And I hope you find the answers your looking for.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2008/1/15 0:49Profile
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 Re: Who anointed Paul???

Quote:

Compton wrote:
Hi Rev,

Quote:
Or will you not seek Grace elsewhere in the Old and New Testaments...and dispel the impression there is that without Paul, there is no Grace.



The impression seemed to be yours. Remember it was you who said the other apostles didn't even grasp Pauls' Gospel of faith. You suggested there was uniqueness in Paul and disharmony from other scriptures, not I. As far as I was concerned, the Old Testament was written to be read with the anticipation of Christ.



[color=993300]Whoa! I didn't say that the other Apostles didn't grasp Paul's gospel of faith...because it is Jesus' gospel of faith, and they were well versed in that gospel. But the original 11 Apostles did not write about Jesus, or His gospel in the way that Paul did, nor do they seem to wish to dispute him from what survives of their written works.

I wasn't at the canonizing of the scriptures party...and as far as I can tell, no Jews were. There was too much emnity at the time between the groups. There were, however, Orthodox Christians there that no longer followed the law at all.

Unfortunately, we do not know from anyone as yet what those Apostles did say, because no one seems to be looking at what they said, and what they say Jesus said.[/color]

Quote:
You have no way of knowing any of those things you attributed to me. Please be at ease regarding any impressions you think I have, for they are only assumptions on your part.



[color=993300]Actually, MC, they weren't even assumptions about you at all...in fact, they were logical deductions, as I could best string them together, about the common belief in the current Christian churches, which you are following, and I am too, to the best of my abilty.[/color]

Quote:
The questions remain about Paul, and 'his' gospel...your words, not mine.

In any case, I'm not worth debating this with. I'm hardly going to give you something you haven't already heard.



[color=993300]You are the only one that can judge that...from what I have been reading, you are no mean expositor of the Word yourself.[/color]

Quote:
Besides, I am pooped, and have no stamina to do any of this anymore.



[color=993300]I can understand that thoroughly...I'm only operating on one cylinder myself![/color]

Quote:
Blessings sister. I mean it. And I hope you find the answers your looking for.

MC



[color=993300]MC, I hope someone CAN and WILL answer them, for it is not in my ability to do so...I am so well taught in Paul I cannot come up with the answers myself.

Indeed, to do so, I am making a copy of the KJV, and eliminating Paul's epistles, just so I can do the searches I need to do, without Paul muddying the waters with his brilliance, education, and experience.

As for his anointing, I have no doubt that God wanted Paul to explain a lot of things...but I rather doubt that we are to take Jesus' message from Paul alone, and the Christian Church has a nasty habit of doing just that.

Hopefully some of the brethern and sistern who are better versed than both of us will take on these very real questions.

Blessings,

Forrest[/color]


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Forrest Anderson

 2008/1/15 1:25Profile





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