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PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Not long after I gave my life to Jesus Christ, I began to get Pearl-Harboured by questions, doubts, philosophies, conjecturings all pertaining to Holy Scripture. The ancient "question of death" began to creep insidiously into my mind and heart: "Hath God said?"

This dark, creeping spider would torment me. It would confuse me, weaken me, cast me into a kind of mental havoc where all things were game and worthy of consideration. Most lethal of all, however, was that it opened the door of "self" to analyze, speculate, deliberate and disect God's Word. If there was a doubtful or spurious link anywhere in God's golden chain, I feared it would snap when pulled taunt, and I found I couldn't go on serving Him knowing there was a weak link somewhere in His Word. It frightened me to think for myself and dig deep and explore - afraid I just might discover where that weak link was and snap it. How then could I preach from a broken chain with a clear conscience?

Finally, I threw in the towel and humbled myself; I layed my biases, my intellect, my issues and baggage at the cross and bowed the knee to the inerrant Word of God by faith. I became a fool and committed suicide intellectually so that I might have peace spiritually. And the truth is when you die to your human cleverness and critical convictions and just surrender all to the inerrancy of the Holy Bible to accept and obey without question or complaint, God rewards your soul with peace, wisdom and confidence. Never again will the fatal question, the creeping, loathsome spider of "Hath God said?" spin a web in your mind and devour your peace and joy in Christ.

Brethren, this is something I have learnt. Surrender all; believe, trust and obey the whole Word and you will live life to its fullest.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/11 16:41Profile
sojourner7
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Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re:

Billy Graham came to a turning point in his
ministry when he realized that while he may
not understand some of the difficult truths
and wisdom of God's word; he agreed it was
still God's Word and God's truth and so he
decided not to question it any more!!


_________________
Martin G. Smith

 2008/1/11 17:38Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Paul,

Quote:
I became a fool and committed suicide intellectually so that I might have peace spiritually.



I would like to look at your testimony a little closer here.

I am reminded of Francis Shaeffer's advice to the new believer that modern man must bow in three ways to the Lord.

First he must bow morally.

Second he must bow intellectually.

Third he must bow metaphysically.

I feel the reason he phrased it this way is to help a man admit the futility of depending on his own perceptions to know God. Man the viewer is fallen, and the world he views is fallen...thus while man is still made in the image of God, the fall has corrupted his will and impaired the intellect. So when man can't find truth it is not because it is missing, but because he can't recognize it in his unrighteousness heart.

We know this from For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

So we cannot trust our intellects, even if our minds are curious, energetic, and strong...because the heart has sway over our thoughts . Our experiences even with spiritual reality, even with the holy Spirit, are equally tainted, in that instead of being illumined by our contact with spiritual things, we pervert our contact with spiritual things, adulterating them into natural and ignorant things. This is our tendency, even if we loathe ourselves for it.

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Finally Christians should not assume that becoming born agaiin instantly glorifies the flesh and renews the mind to such a state where we see and know perfectly. For the purpose of knowing God, even Christians must concede that their perceptions remain tainted by their past experiences, and remain affected by the fall. For this purpose we are given the scriptures to provide a source of understandable truth outside of the flaws of our own morals, intellects, and spiritual experiences. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. This scripture implies that man is ever susceptible to moral, intellectual, and metaphysical corruption, but that it is the word of God assumes ruler-ship over these inner parts...and not only shows us our real selves, but also corrects and helps us.

So my long winded point is this brother Paul. You did not really commit intellectual suicide when you traded your thoughts for God's word. On the contrary, you moved from the unsustainable fallacy of authenticating truth through your own rational philosophy. (Objecting philosophers and scientists among us may recall the conclusion of David Hume: "Reason is, and ought only to be, the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them." )

So Paul, once we admit the corruptibility of homo perceptus we realize that intellectual suicide is not committed when we agree with God's Word, but when we ignore or argue with it.

As a footnote, there are some who should be careful how much distance they insist exists between the word and the Word. If we say we prefer a metaphysical experience with Christ over his written word, we might be closing the very spiritual doors that the bible was meant to open. We know that reading the scriptures is unlike reading any other book ever written. The Spirit of God is there with us, and if we close our bibles in hopes of receiving something more mystically or emotionally, we are in fact closing ourselves off to the Spirit, rather then opening ourselves up to him.

Blessings,

MC




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Mike Compton

 2008/1/11 20:07Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
So Paul, once we admit the corruptibility of homo perceptus we realize that intellectual suicide is not committed when we agree with God's Word, but when we ignore or argue with it.



Succinctly put. Yes, I could have expressed it differently. The suicide that occured was more of a willful subdual of homo perceptus to the Lordship of Christ. This may go off on a slight tanget here, but I also believe that the subduing of the intellect to Christ's Lordship always leads to the all-encompassing revelation of Scripture inerrancy and absolutism.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/11 20:22Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Paul,

My semantical concern was not for your sake, but for 'the record.'
Actually the 'violence' of your determination to submit your inner man to the Lord was convicting and challenging to me. These discussions have been showing me how lax I've become. May your tribe increase!

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/1/11 20:26Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Hey, brother, Lord willing my wife will allow me to go to the yet-in-the-womb Revival Conference 2008. I'm not too particular about where it will be - just as long as there's a good coffee shop nearby.

Would love to sit and drink a few cups with you. And talk.

God bless you,

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/11 20:33Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Who Anointed Paul???

Quote:
I became a fool and committed suicide intellectually so that I might have peace spiritually.



Loved this line and the reading between of it ...

"Lean not to your own understanding"

This seems to be a continuance of an older argument that comes down to authority and a certain dislike of it than one of supposed contradiction. I definitely feel the indignation start to rise up when the idea that Paul is somehow ... "[i]other than[/i]" the rest of the apostles or is in contradistinction or that he presents a 'take or leave or it' mentality that allows him to be challenged and by that I mean into disregard, as that often seems to be the idea of some. Take what I like, disregard the rest.

Quote:
His unfortunate words against a women speaking in Church, when it was actually a Synagogue,(and Synagogues are very noisy places.)even though many women have spoken for God in the past. Still, Paul's words have been used against women for centuries...heavens, how many women have been killed for disagreeing with a man, much less a priest?

I obey all these rules...by staying out of any churches.

I probably would not stay away from Churches if I were not disabled, but I would be hard put to find a church that is not already contaminated by the false doctrines out there, and there are many of those.



Is this like the defiant child after being told to sit down utters to himself "[i]But I'm standing up on the inside![/i]" ?

Quote:
If I went to a church, and wanted to speak against some of the lamentable preaching out there, I would wear a head covering, because it would show that I meant business, and was taking the Lord for my covering, as I do in the rest of my life. And I would probably be evicted, or even arrested, for simply interrupting the service, and not just because I am a woman, but because our churches do not allow discussion, as synagogues, and the Temple did, and house churches now do.



Or might you do none of the above and recognize something back of and underneath it all.

Quote:
But many people question not the message of Paul, but his frequently odd behavior.



It is only odd if you deem it so and because it seems to disagree with the way you think things ought to be done. In essence you are setting up Paul as a straw man to try and knock him back down again, this is fallacious reasoning and suspect.

""For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (ROM 3:7)"

Come now, surely you do not supposed to extract this from the intention do you? How much of doing just this fit's your own accusations here, snatch a scripture and make an argument, rather an accusation;

Quote:
And since he admits he lies, it is a problem.



[b]through my lie to his glory:[/b] nothing is more opposite to truth than a lie; a lie of itself can never be of any advantage to truth, or to the God of truth; nothing is more contrary to the nature of God, and more abominable to him; a lie is of the devil, and punishable with eternal death; wherefore it may seem strange, that the truth of God should abound through it to his glory: now let it be observed, that the apostle is not speaking of himself, nor of his lie of unbelief, in his state of unregeneracy; but in the person of a sinful man, "for every man is a liar", Rom_3:4, as he says, "I speak as a man", Rom_3:5; representing a wicked man, who from what was before said, might collect this as the sense of it, that the truth of God is illustrated by the lies of men: and so much may be owned as the apostle's sense, that the truth of God is commended, illustrated, and made to abound, when it is asserted, that he is true and faithful, and every man is a liar, fallacious, and deceitful; "let God be true, and every man a liar", Rom_3:4, moreover, the truth of God may be allowed to abound through the lies of men, in a comparative sense, the one being set against the other; and so as contraries do, illustrate each other: this may be assented to, as that sometimes a lie has been overruled by God, for the accomplishing of his purposes and promises, in which his truth and faithfulness have been displayed, as in the cases of Jacob and the Egyptian midwives; but then this does not arise from its nature and tendency, but from the overruling wisdom and providence of God, and therefore not to be excused hereby from sin; and consequently the inference from it is not just, that therefore "no man can, or ought to be, judged as a sinner"; since his sin turns to such account, as to make for the glory of God, which is intimated in the question:

John Gill

Read, [i]colloquialism[/i] ...

Quote:
Let this not be personal, but a true discussion of points that bother many people about Paul. And they do bother people...enough to lead them away from Christianity, or to doubt God's message.

And I am asking because I am asked these questions, and I'd like to have some really good answers...if there are any!



Glad that it is not personal and neither is mine. But is it not also true that you yourself are very bothered by these things, more so than the charge you are leveling that Paul would actually ... "[i]enough to lead them away from Christianity, or to doubt God's message.[/i]" That is patently absurd! Are we not again in the business of 'fixing the message' to assuage the hearers? Even the scripture you quoted and underlined;

15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; [b]even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; [u]in which are some things hard to be understood[/u], which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/b]

How remarkable that this proves the very point against your reasoning here.

Quote:
For those that love Paul and his message, please note that this is a question on doctrine, not an attack on Paul's message of Grace through Faith.



And by that you are making a distinction that Paul has a [i]different[/i] message than the rest. It's a straw man and doesn't exist except in wresting the scriptures.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/13 10:52Profile









 Re: Who Anointed Paul???

Quote:
Yet Paul made a lot of rules for Gentiles to live by. Was that his job? In converting the Gentiles, was he to also tell them how to live?

I don't think that he was telling anyone "how to live", rather how one should ought to live.

I hope no one takes the words of Paul and treats them like the Ten Commandments that we wake each morning and "try" to live the words of Paul. God Forbid.

Paul's writings are meant to be like this scripture:
Quote:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


I think his writings are meant to be a help for the Christian as they journey on life's way. There are many examples given on how to deal with certain situations. Some things are spoken in mysteries and some are spiritual.

 2008/1/13 14:41
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those that love Paul and his message, please note that this is a question on doctrine, not an attack on Paul's message of Grace through Faith.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"""


"And by that you are making a distinction that Paul has a different message than the rest. It's a straw man and doesn't exist except in wresting the scriptures."


The ironic thing here is that Paul's gospel is completely different than anything ever revealed before to man.

This is just the beginning of what Paul wants to convey of what Jesus Christ revealed to Him and only him Personally.

Colossians 1:12-15 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For it is Christ in Paul, the reason for his very existence, and Paul always in all his epistles preaches this In Christ position of the believer and even much more "hard to understand", "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:16-24 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

To finish the revealing of this mystery to Paul which is to fulfill the the Word and will of God in Christ Jesus, Paul states it plainly and securely, without variation or changing of mind or spirit. "To know Him", above all that Paul is or ever was, this is Pauls overwhelming and never changing want for himself and all the saints that are in Christ Jesus, which is His Body the Church, Christ living in each one and the Holy Spirit by the Prayer of Jesus Christ now in the believer also from the Father, to reveal this mystery, again, "Christ in you the hope of glory".

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"Things hard to understand", absolutely, and only can be revealed by the Holy Spirit as Christ gives Him utterance.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Teaching in the spirit:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Not of the Holy Spirit Himself, but of Christ, taught by the Parakleet.

John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

No wonder so many don't have ears to hear and eyes to see. This is a mind blowing concept, another person being born in the believer, that is Christ in you the hope of glory, "things hard to understand", how can this be? But without this Spirit of Christ and the water of life being in the believer, "we are none of His".
Ask and you will receive. When you ask for the bread of life, He won't give you a stone.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


In Christ, Christ in us, a newly born creature of God: Phillip

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me (Paul) for you, to fulfil the Word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. "by My Gospel"

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to ((my gospel.))

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to (((my gospel,))) and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to ((((my gospel:))))

((if this offends, better speak to God.))

IN CHRIST: I wish and pray these two words would explode of the page in into our hearts with all the power of God that created all that there is or ever will be. Resurrection Power.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/1/13 18:26Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I hope no one takes the words of Paul and treats them like the Ten Commandments that we wake each morning and "try" to live the words of Paul. God Forbid.



Well, I for one, take the words of Paul very seriously, and treat them as though it were God speaking directly to my Spirit, because I believe such is the intent of the Holy Ghost. I think we ought to live the words of Paul indeed - because Paul exhorts us to imitate him as he, in turn, imitates Christ.

Quote:
I think his writings are meant to be a [i]help[/i] for the Christian as they journey on life's way. There are many examples given on how to deal with certain situations. Some things are spoken in mysteries and some are spiritual.



I think Paul is giving us more than mere helpful suggestions in his inspired epistles - I believe he gives us the standard as he received directly from God. The danger we get into now is when we begin to rationalize, and hypothesize that this was all good for Paul - for Paul's day and culture - but today we see things a little differently. This is how we get into the dilemma the author of this thread is in.

The Christian doesn't awaken each morning to "try" (as you wrote) to live the words of Paul, but we should certainly aspire to imitate him, as we are provoked and empowered by God. Paul inspires me on so many different fronts. He is truly my greatest hero and object of emultation in the Bible after Jesus Christ.


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/13 18:39Profile





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