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Matt 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
Beyond clearly noted signs of endtimes in the Bible, like the mark of the beast, we should not trust any modern day prophesy. They may preach great revival earnestly and sound quite Christian; they may well walk on water and do all sorts of very convincing things.
The Bible has all the prophesy we need.
we have been warned.
bub
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Compton wrote:
Bubba,
I actually agree with every syllable in your last post.
Scary! Is this a sign of the apocalypse?
MC
Me too! Except for a small point, which may not even be a real disagreement...
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The Bible has all the prophecy we need.
Yes it has. However, this doesn't mean that there is no place for genuine prophecy any more, but genuine prophecy will merely [i]apply[/i] the principles of Scripture, not add to it. Or maybe like Agabus in acts, who was a true prophet and gave specific warnings (in the Biblical examples) of things that would affect individuals or the Church.
Hope you agree :-)
Jeannette |
|  2008/1/12 5:05 | |
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Compliments wrote:
How do you see interpret this verse?
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2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Hmmm, interesting question. I understand how you must see this verse, but it has to be looked at in context.
[color=990000]12 ¶ For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 ¶ [u] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more[/u].
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[/color]
The obvious meaning is that we now have spiritual understanding, so have no need to discern anyone merely "after the flesh" (i.e. from a human standpoint). As the Lord said in 1Samuel 16, when Samuel was going to anoint one of Jesse's sons as king:
[color=990000]7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.[/color]
This is the context of the 2Corinthians verse - I'm not sure if it can be stretched to have the meaning you would apply to it. It [i]is[/i] a stretch because the passage has nothing whatsoever to do with Christ's return.
Paul is saying that, [i]because we are new creations in Christ[/i], we don't look at things from a human point of view any more, but from God's viewpoint, a spiritual understanding. Therefore, we know Christ spiritually, even though He wasn't with them "in the flesh" any more.
When He first came "in the flesh" that was the only way [i]anyone[/i] could know Him, (unless given special revelation from God), and even the disciples didn't understand Him at all! But now He has come in the Spirit we can know Him in a far deeper and more intimate way.
There's also an echo of 1Samuel 16 in verse 12 of 2Cor 5 Paul speaks of those who value only autward appearance, following attractive preachers who tell them what they want to hear. [color=990000]...that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.[/color]
Remember, one of the themes of 2Corinthians is Paul's claim to apostleship, even though his enemies despised him because his appearance seemed to them to be insignificant. This is probably what he had in mind in this verse.
Nowhere in the 2Corinthians passage is there any hint re Christ's return because that isn't what Paul is talking about here! However, other writings of his show that he indeed believed that Jesus would return bodily at the resurrection (1Cor 15, 1Thess 4 etc).
They talk about house hunting, that it's "Location, location, location" that you have to consider. In the Bible it's [b]"Context, context, context"[/b]. You can only make 2Cor 5:16 mean that Jesus isn't going to return bodily if you wrest it completely out of context.
Indeed, even when He returns we will [i]still[i] not know Him any more "after the flesh" because His Spirit dwells within us, and we will have no need of physical recognition and no longer be tempted to judge in a human fashion.
As Paul says in 1Cor 15 there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. Jesus' body after the Resurrection was physical - solid enough to be touched and to eat food - but it wasn't the same kind of body He had before. No longer would He suffer or die; He could go from one place to another in an instant and pass through locked doors. He could hide from outward eyes when He chose. Yet on the Emmaus Road the disciples said "their hearts burned within them" as He talked. Even though they didn't recognise Him, their spirits knew Him. Just as John the Baptist knew while still in his mother's womb!
This is the kind of body, "like unto His glorious body" (Philippians 3:21) that we shall also be granted at the general resurrection of the dead! Fleshly bodies indeed, but so very much more...
Those were examples of spiritual knowing long before Paul wrote of it. But until Pentecost it was only granted to very few.
Excuse the rather long reply, but I've benefited greatly from studying this, having never thought of it in quite that way before.
Thanks
In Him
Jeannette
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| | 2008/1/12 6:10 | |
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murrcolr wrote:
I shared on another thread Prophetic credentials that I had a feeling of dread.
God's spirit spoke to mine this is what he said to me. 'Don't be scared about what the Devil will do be scared about what I'll do'
At the time I heard him speak I laughed as there is always joy when prayer is answered.
There are some things on this site that perplex me. Before I start I would like to point out that there are terrible times coming they will be hard to deal with. BUT THEY CAN BE DEALT WITH.
We all know the bablyon is going to fall. That does involve the system of finances. Please don't go and buy anymore books from people who claim they have found a new revelation about a finacial collapse it's not knew it's in the bible.
God is a jealous God he wants us all to himself and he'll get his way and there is no stopping it.
We have to see what God's plan is for his church what will God do. First of all God has to sort out his church. He must he can't bring judgement to this earth without having a people with the answers. Look at Noah God had a plan there.
The church will be like a Ark. Oh and don't listen to these people who say we are going to fly away before the tribulation. We are not going to fly away. Look at Jesus born a Jew in a Roman Empire did God spare him no. Look at Daniel a Jew in captivity in Babylon. Thrown into the Lion's Den.
.........WE ARE GOING TO STAND AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT WE WILL OVERCOME..........
People we are getting close to one of the times where God's people are going to shine brighter that we have ever shined. Yes there will be martyrs yes we will be rejected, shunned, mocked, tortured and beheaded but WE WILL OVERCOME. By the Grace of God we will.
That's what perplexs me there seems to be so much fear. We seem to be running scared.
Remember God's people God is with us......
We will overcome
AMEN Murrey!
Agree 100% |
| | 2008/1/12 6:12 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Compton wrote:
Hi Murrcolr,
You touch on an undercurrent running through much of the revivalist prophetic movement that I would like to hear comments on.
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Remember God's people God is with us......
Perhaps why there is so much fear lies in the very nature of revivalist objectives, which seeks to undermine personal confidence in the believer's position of security with God. I am not protesting it here, but I do want to point out it does have some dynamics. Igniting the psychological dynamite of revivalism is risky business, especially if we aren't waiting on the Spirit to light the fuse.
There is a strong imperative within revivalist preaching and prophecy for 'separation'--- come out from among her! The rub is that 'her' means not only the world but the majority of the church where God's people were supposed to be. The implication is that maybe God isn't with his people (ostensibly) afterall.
It should be noted that much end times prophecy is separatist by nature. While this is neither a bad or good thing per se, we should recognize that every separatist movement tends to be energized by a low regard for other groups, seeing their practice as impure or their intentions as corrupted. I do not mean any disrespect, but we should be clear headed enough to recognize that there is a strong separatist attitude among the members of Sermon Index. Many of us have come here seeking earnest fellowship because we have been disenchanted, if not disenfranchised from previously disappointing church experiences, ranging from prosperity charismaticism to formal fundamentalism.
This desire for an authentic fellowship is exciting, but one of the pitfalls of such fellowship is developing a private language and community around the theme that most Christians are deceived Christians.
To make matters worse, occasionally we'll turn the rhetorical weapons we have brandied for others upon one another. One member accusing another of being part of Babylon is not unheard of in this setting.
So this is why there is so much fear brother. It is not fear of going through poverty or war. It is fear of being selected by God for judgement for having failed to separate oneself radically enough from the parts of this worldly kingdom that are going to be destroyed. Indeed, there have been a few voices even in this forum who suggest that being a Christian in America is such an oxymoron that God is going to see this nation nuked not in-spite of the church, but because of her!
I did not notice the downside of being a separatist until I tried to find fellowship in a local church in Lancaster. It took me a couple months to realize that the brethren there I was unconsciously judging, were actually being more loving to me then I was to them.
Well, in any case...this is my explanation of why some here have fear of the end times. Perhaps they have walked into the force of their own indictments against the 'apostate church' and are feeling the cold wind of their own judgments. The circle of perfection is tightening, and the more introspective among us wonder if the standards we impose on others might also exclude us from God's grace.
Blessings,
MC
Hi MC
What you say is very true, and a real searching challenge.
...That's why I find it strange not to have a local church any more. The only time I went to one that seemed might be right, the Lord gave me a rap on the knuckles for not waiting for Him!
Yet it's seems He's dealing with things in my life that are in some measure separating me from Him and from the Body. He's dealing with them by [i]separation[/i]!
Seems crazy, doesn't it! I wonder if until we become truly "separated" unto Him, we can't be one in Him.
But that's a different kind of separation from the wrong attitude of superiority, that we can so easily have, over other Christians and groups.
That's been a temptation for me too, but it seems He's getting me to a place where I'm so obviously not superior that I can't kid myself any more!
Maybe finding a "near-perfect" local church at this stage would spoil that!
Thank you for that post.
In Him
Jeannette |
| | 2008/1/12 6:24 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Compton wrote:
Thank you Murrcolr for your testimony. The Gethsamane moment of submission in your life you described was challenging and encouraging.
I obviously wasn't assigning any implications to your post or ideas. I didn't think you were drawing lines in your post at all...in fact just the opposite; your position seemed quite gracious and inclusive to all Christians. I was only attempting to provide my answer to that one question.
Blessings brother,
MC
AMEN to that - what a challenge! |
| | 2008/1/12 6:28 | |
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n the Bible it's "Context, context, context"
I know Jeanette, I am not stupid. I only copied and pasted this one verse to HIGHLIGHT this one verse. I could have copied and pasted the whole chapter, and I did read it in it's context. I thought surely everyone has bibles galore to look the rest up in it's contexts. I have said in many threads, I do not just use one verse to build a teaching on, the cults do that. That verse must agree with the whole as well as the part. Verse 15, 16 and 17 are in it's proper context.
Thank you for your contextual letter.
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| | 2008/1/12 8:43 | |
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Compliments wrote:
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n the Bible it's "Context, context, context"
I know Jeanette, I am not stupid. I only copied and pasted this one verse to HIGHLIGHT this one verse. I could have copied and pasted the whole chapter, and I did read it in it's context. I thought surely everyone has bibles galore to look the rest up in it's contexts. I have said in many threads, I do not just use one verse to build a teaching on, the cults do that. That verse must agree with the whole as well as the part. Verse 15, 16 and 17 are in it's proper context.
Thank you for your contextual letter.
Sorry, think I've offended you. I know you aren't stupid, but you did give the impression that you wanted to use the verse to prove that Christ will not return bodily. And that would have meant missing the context.
Maybe you didn't mean that...
So what do you think the verse means?
Brother, I have great respect for you and in no way meant to imply that you are stupid. Please forgive me.
Indeed I had never really looked at this passage from that angle before, and it was a blessing to study it and ponder on what it really did mean.
Yours in Him
Jeannette |
| | 2008/1/12 8:54 | |
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Brother, I have great respect for you and in no way meant to imply that you are stupid. Please forgive me.
Someday they will make these forums with a emotion. I wasn't offended at all. No apology is necessary, but I do appreciate the gesture.
You should have no respect for those whom you think to be in error. Compassion yes, a strong and loving hand yes, but not respect. The scriptures tells us not even to be in fellowship with those who walk disorderly. Evil communications corrupt good manners. Evil is anything that is not of the Truth.
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Indeed I had never really looked at this passage from that angle before, and it was a blessing to study it and ponder on what it really did mean.
And I too have pondered it with you.
Lets ponder some more. 8-) |
| | 2008/1/12 12:00 | |
| | Re: | | I really did think you were offended. Mostly because I know what I can be like when in "lecturing mode" :-(
A (good!) friend once said: "Sometimes you coma across as a bit of a know-all, but you're quite humble really!"
OUCH! |
| | 2008/1/12 18:06 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Compliments wrote:
You should have no respect for those whom you think to be in error. Compassion yes, a strong and loving hand yes, but not respect. The scriptures tells us not even to be in fellowship with those who walk disorderly. Evil communications corrupt good manners. Evil is anything that is not of the Truth.
Don't you mean "no respect for the [i]beliefs[/i] of those you believe to be in error"?
I do believe you are somewhat in error, (but not on the absolute basics of faith), but you don't "walk disorderly", nor seek to get a following for your beliefs or manipulate others into accepting them. Neither do you attempt to lead any astray with writings that are not Scripture.
Just looked up the word translated "disorderly", it means, according to Strong's:
[i][b]1 disorderly, out of ranks (often so of soldiers). 2 irregular, inordinate, immoderate pleasures. 3 deviating from the prescribed order or rule. Additional Information: Used in Greek society of those who did not show up for work.[/b][/i]
Mmmm no, I don't think so :-)
in Him
Jeannette
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| | 2008/1/12 18:19 | |
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