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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Judging unjustly

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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Judging unjustly

Reply to Brother Chris

Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known. KJV

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? KJV

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath, for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him, if he thirst, give him drink, for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. KJV

Nabal was of the house of Caleb but he was churlish and evil in his doings and he was such a son of Belial, that a man could not speak to him. He insulted David but David spared him and Our Lord took him, sparing David the grief and the offence unto David’s heart for shedding blood by avenging himself.

We too should walk in strength and assurance as children of God.



 2008/2/29 3:09Profile

Joined: 2007/11/19
Posts: 159


In seeing that we are under a new Covenant and the old is passing away..this better covenant..we should fix our eyes upon Jesus when trying to derive a standard to judge by.Scouring through the old testament law ,while seeking to to live in the higher and better law of love and liberty seems to me nothing more than a religious mental exercise..not a spritually alive quest..why go backwards..into a nation of religious and ruthless, rebellious people to derive insights..unless it is to see the uselessness of the law to prevent sin in the lives of God's people..and yes we learn from history..what not to do mostly.We mostly learn what to avoid.

So many of these stories,such as the tale in Judges concerning the concubine who is thrown out to the rapists because the master was too proud to listen to the servant who warned not to go that way..and then did not find favor in the townsquare,being left till evening ignored by the townspeople as far as the extending of customary hospitality was concerned..just the old man offered,who didn't even think it was a good idea..where was the witness? So enter the badguys..demanding their evil desire be slaked...not us men..oh no..take the virgin ..take this whore of a concubine who fled from me and ran back to her father( anybody get a witness on why she ran back to dear ol dad..abuse perhaps..wouldn't be the first time a man called a woman a whore for leaving him,from shrinking from or defying his abusive advances) these men were cowardly,grotesquely so..Christ lays down His life for the bride..protects the weak or do concubines not count.Does God have a different is ok for women to be raped,but men should avoid this at all costs?

As we go on with this sordid tale of the state of fallen man..out goes the poor sacrificial lamb..terrible tragedy ensues..and left out side, dies with her hand on the door handle at the threshold,at dawn..don't these guys see her coming..or did they take a nap?..why are they not awake ,praying ..watching?..The coldness of this master is astonishing as he steps over her without seeing..let's go..get up..nice guy..doesn't stop and see if he can comfort her,or to give her a hand up..oh dear me! She is dead!Oh He's angry now..did they pay for concubines in those days?..His investment ruined..then he dessicrates her body..breaking the law..and starts a war between the tribes of Israel,which nearly anniliated the tribe of Benjamin ..but oh! God told them to!

When I read this story I believe I heard the Father say..I did not give them permission to do that..they had made a god like unto themselves and was following their own desire..a revengeful spirit seduced them.And so I read if this wasn't bad enough then they kidnap all the temple dancers from Shiloh's harvest celebration..Because of the hasty vows they was their pride I suspect they were protecting..not their relationship with the Most High. God is not a kidnapper..or the author of this sort of thing..His true face is seen in Jesus..the same yesterday today and forever.

When we rightly divide the word..we can see where it is only man's soulish notions of who God is..and what He is saying vs. the Reality of Who God is and What He is saying..Jesus is the Truth (Reality) I cannot help but see this all over the old testament..God said this and God said that ..but the Holy Spirit is shaking my head no..God did not say..this was man's soul in the mix..only seeing to the degree he could understand..and we know that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit for they are spiritually discerned..of we who are filled with the spirit often struggle to grasp the spiritual truths as laid forth by Jesus ..His words and actions..and know Him to the degree that we the seeds of His word sown in our hearts germinate and take hold..growing towards the light as they do. Why would we seek wisdom from the antics of men who were far from Him in their hearts and minds..even dear David's words of vengence upon his enemies must be abandoned in favor of Christ's higher way. David's oftimes selfish focus on justice for himself..his prayers asking for himself but not others..a me focus..not a we focus.

My heart says..go forward,follow Jesus..let the dead bury those who were dead to the life of Christ who were under the law..stop using their lesser principles..these only led to the religious madness that crucified Christ.

I do not say we aren't ever led to view what has gone on before..but before you start trying to weave portions of these threads of old thinking into the fabric of your own making,remniscent of old wineskins bursting ..or the patch shrinking to try to adhere to the old..understand that when Jesus was refering to the Law and the Prophets..He usually said..where they are speaking of Me,always comparing what was written with what was better..laying forth the new...releasing us from the old.

And so as we read the OT.. where does it point to,portray Christ's in Elisha feeding /his enemy them drink and sending them on thier way..instead of perpetuating the madness..He was infusing it with mercy and wisdom. Where do we see Jesus? Think on these things.

After studying the OT for many decades,having a profound interest in the history of my ancestors..being a jewess..I came to see a people chosen,not because they were so unique from the rest of mankind..I see God revealing the difference between man's inability to grasp the true nature of God even when given a form as close to revealing the Lamb Of God that would be found throughout all of history..a vivid expose as to what happens when religion becomes god and man's understanding is all there is..I see God using Israel to reveal His love and mercy..His compassion in bearing with man as He moves to set up his kingdom on earth ..where man can be free from the letter of the law and live in the living law of love and liberty.Israel as a proud and rebellious nation ,barbaric and vengeful..God spares them from ethnic cleansing what do they do..they wipe everybody outwho was going to kill them..most of these probably never even knew what the leadership had conspired to do..but the law of sowing and reaping stands until there is a sacrifice for sins..and if you do not confess the sin is it automatically covered..or does it being unconfessed due to not being grasped as sin fall under some place such as sins of omssision..No wonder God wearied of the way things were handled..despising their festivals..did God rejoice in desrtuction on this level..retaliation? I ask does this reflect the gospel of Christ..not even close..and thus they perpetuated the cycle of killing and massacre.It is no wonder the Jews have seen this come upon themselves again and again..atrocity following atrocity..a self perpetuating evil.

Why do we not see that God's way is the same as Christ it that man couldn't precieve of this better way and so God worked with them where they were at. The fix never remained,they would gain ground,as we see in the Books of Kings,tearing down false altars etc,however rarely did they hold their enemy (within and without) at bay for longer than one generation and wham everything was a mess again..Could it have been that the split between the nation displeased God more than they could guess? This causes me to see the parallels in todays church.polarized from one another due to differences that are unimportant,unworthy of our true purpose.

The old covenant wasn't perfect.. it was used to hold them in check,bring a semblance of order to a people who could not govern themselves..until the time when God could bring forth His Living Word..the OT is like a map that without the key you are not going to see what God is saying to us who are filled with the Spirit of cannot be fully understood without the Spirit.It must be read leaning on the Spirit of heavenly wisdom..or it will spark you to also seek desire to annilhilate your is the works of darkness that The Lord has conquered..the people..all faiths and cultures,these He sends us to save. Israel needed a Messiah as did all nations..why would God play favorites..Israel was chosen as an example..God's promised to Abraham through the seed of Issac(laughter) a miracle child..a child of promise and God showed forth His miraculous powerunto this nation..I have always been so much more impressed with all the times that God used the mighty angels to bring the enemy down or psycological subterfuge..when I see man take up arms agaicst his own countryman,and those who are spirit cries out Stop the madnes! Kiss the son..the Prince Of Peace.. a kiss that vows allegiance..not a kiss of betrayal for all in which He stands.

I know that it will only worsen until the time God sends the heavenly host over the face of the earth to cleanse it of the wicked,as in the days of Pharoah..we will not have to defile our hands with blood..we will not have to wreak more havoc with our own vengence..we are as sacrificial lambs..and like our Master,our recompense has been laid up for millenium...Jesus laid the recompense for all the priests and the prophets of old at Jerusalem's doorstep and surely she did reap the generation as spoken,but God speaks to me now of every innocent life taken,brutalized and destroyed whether physically or mentally/emotionally..every woman and child mistreated,raped ,cast out and abandoned,murdered and robbed..every man who has suffered the same..from the beginning of man.Then there are the saints martyred for Christ's kingdom...there is a huge recompense ..blood that still cries out to God like Abel's from the earth..Oh Israel so blind and religiously bound..where is your Savior? He came and she missed it..and now she is surrounded by enemies..and still she makes a covennant with death..O pray for Israel for peace with God to be hers.

God sent Jesus,He is the way to go,to follow..but why do God's Christed people(grafted into the Vine or of the original seed) search the scriptures of old for newness of life..where the only life that resonates with the spirit of the law is Christ Himself revealed..His grace made manifest through Faith..stay focused upon Him and our light will shine brighter and brighter as the noon day.

It is good to read, to know what has come before..but never use the old covenant for a measuring is not plumb with the Lord Christ..whose glory is the exact expression of the Glory of the Father.

G.M. (Destiny) Sweet

 2008/2/29 16:27Profile


The definition of meekness that I heard some time ago and that has stayed with me is this, that it has the idea of 'strength, under control'.

I once heard the definition of meekness as accepting everything as coming from the Lord.

Not my will, but thine be done.

Jesus was meek, in doing God's will, yet He wasn't a pushover or a door mat. So, meekness may also mean, while doing the will of God, in His Power and strength...(((along the lines of humility))....( we take no credit for it..getting puffed up.)

Just a thought!


 2008/2/29 16:40



Katy-did wrote:
The definition of meekness that I heard some time ago and that has stayed with me is this, that it has the idea of 'strength, under control'.

I once heard the definition of meekness as accepting everything as coming from the Lord.

Not my will, but thine be done.

Jesus was meek, in doing God's will, yet He wasn't a pushover or a door mat. So, meekness may also mean, while doing the will of God, in His Power and strength...(((along the lines of humility))....( [u]we take no credit for it..getting puffed up.[/u])

Just a thought!


Amen Katy. Also called discernment in some cases. Count the "I"s Watchman Nee said.


Edit: sentence structure

 2008/2/29 16:45

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi brother Eddie,

"Nabal was of the house of Caleb but he was churlish and evil in his doings and he was such a son of Belial, that a man could not speak to him."

One of the examples that brother K.P mentioned in the message about humility was the life of David. Like in the example you mentioned, he did not take things into his own hands concerning Saul either.

Here is a link to part one also...

[url=]Clothed in Humility, Part One by K.P. Yohannan[/url]

Grace and peace,


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/29 20:44Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708



I am so lifted up by your post. It is wonderful to see one who is even called a Jew finding the truth of The Christ that has been birthed in us.
Truly making us Jews inwardly.

Your treatise on the old and the new is so refreshing. Most people try to co-mingle the old testament with the new and bring the Law to Grace and put them together and make them work for man, destroying them both.

There is only One that will work for man and God used the whole old testament to show how He was going to do it. This is the mystery that Paul is speaking of when he said, God chose him from His mothers womb to reveal this mystery in him, that is the rebirth of Jesus Christ in Paul and knowing that the only life he would live was the life of the Son that is born again in him.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, Galatians 1:16-17 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Three years Christ was in Paul and he came to know who he was truly in Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This making Paul a son of God by the Son of God in Him and making Paul a minister of this truth.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Thank you again. How refreshing it is to know one who is truly a Jew: Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Again praise God and; Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Truly In Christ by rebirth: Phillip


 2008/2/29 23:50Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: things new and old

Hi everyone,

destinysweet, about this...

"I do not say we aren't ever led to view what has gone on before..but before you start trying to weave portions of these threads of old thinking into the fabric of your own making..."

I think I can understand what you are saying here. It seems like the safe way is to follow the lead of the Apostles as they brought forth things both new and old for us to consider and to follow them as they gave us instruction out of the Scriptures. Like you said, often giving us examples of what not to do, but sometimes of what to do, also.

I was reminded how the Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] Therefore every scribe [i]which is[/i] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [i]that is[/i] a householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [i]things[/i] new and old. [/color][/b]

- Matthew 13:52(KJV)

I think for instance of Peter, and how in instructing wives, saying that they should be "...of a meek and quiet spirit", he says

"Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord..."

- 1 Peter 3:6(KJV)

And Paul, writting of the things which happened in the wilderness said

"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

- 1 Corinthians 10:11(KJV)

Or James, writing about the prophets saying,

"Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience."

- James 5:10(KJV)

Jude calls us to remember the example of Sodom and Gomorrah and the author of Hebrews gives us so many examples of faith. And in the revelation that John recieved we are reminded of what Balaam did.

In all these things I think of how Paul told Timothy,

"All Scripture [i]is[/i] given by inspiration of God, and [i]is[/i] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

- 2 Timothy 3:16-17(KJV)

In coming back to the subject of this thread, we were looking at how the Lord Jesus said His judgment was just, because He did not seek His own will. But in the case of Jacob's sons, it seems that is what they did, their own will.

Well, take care for now, and wish you all well,


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/3/1 8:44Profile


"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."


ChrisJD, you brought up some excellent points.

In trying to integrate(((edited))) ((some of)) Destinysweet's comments with this subject, along with Anne's comment on discernment, it can be done.

We have the mind of Christ, and with that mind reading OT scripture we can discern with the help of the Holy Spirit how to apply the [u]ALL scripture is given for [/u].

One example for me was the comment Paul made concerning his brethren, saying from his heart, that he would be accursed for his brethren's sake, and seeing how Moses somewhat did the same thing when the Children of Israel sinned...Moses said...Kill me too.

In judging these scriptures or rather discerning....I see the same heart of Jesus Christ, who while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. So the real judging or discerning here would be a LOVE expressed [u]beyond[/u] the human capacity of love.

In both cases, these men had a love so strong for the lost they were willing to lay down their own lives.

We can learn SOOOOO much from the OT.

Take for instance the 7 letters in Revelation, written with a Jewish understanding as one would have to go back to the OT to even understand the implications of Jezebels, Balaam, and so much more.

Not to mention the Heart of David, in the Psalms, going through trials and tribulations, personal sin, rejection etc. Paul also uses David in Romans 4 stating.....even David said Blessed is the man who's sin's are forgiven........

And again the Proverbs are timeless.

The NT is built upon the foundation of the OT, fulfilled in the New. We must never forget this!

With many Prophecies yet to be fulfilled, we certainly must JUDGE or discern...learning to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Just some added thought here!


 2008/3/1 9:09

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: apples of gold in pictures of silver


I really appreciated this last post!

"We have the mind of Christ, and with that mind reading OT scripture we can discern with the help of the Holy Spirit how to apply the ALL scripture is given for ."

That seems right to me also! That there is a right way to apply these things. Something else that comes to mind in this, is that we not only apply the scriptures accurately, but also timely, at the appropriate time and setting, and in the right spirit.

I thought of how the Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]

- John 8:26(KJV)

How many things could He have said to them! But it seems here that though there were so many things that were true, that He could have said, in order to judge rightly it was needful that He discern what the Father wanted Him to say and not only what was true.

Couldn't He have used His knowledge to shut every mouth, to silence every critic? But was that God's way? Was it what the Father was doing, right then?

And this seems to me to be connected with the idea of being meek. That all of our faculties are brought into subjection and under the control of God. So that we do not speak of, or out of, ourselves, and only out of our knowledge, even if it is true.

Just now I thought of a still pond. And of the ripples that would go out from a pebble being cast into it.

Perhaps our spirits, having been subdued, are to be as that pond, and our words the ripples that go out from the pebbles that the Lord would cast into it.

Grace and peace,


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/3/1 9:58Profile


I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

ChrisJD, I believe this is also followed up with...I will send you the Holy Spirit and He will bring you into all truth. If not here at this passage, certainly in another.

Those [u] many things[/u] are a life long journey we have in our walk with the Lord.

I have been so blessed by ALL SCRIPTURE.

When we first get saved, yes we are in a me, myself and I mode we don't even realize. That's ok for a while. Example: **I'm** a New creation.. **I've** been birthed by God...**I'm** no longer under Law, etc, etc,.....but we must move on from here to a deeper walk, now that we are a New Creation In Christ Jesus, and ask....Lord, what will thou have me to do??..where will thou have me to go??

This is about FAITH, not LAW.

No, our OT Saints were not filled with Christ in them at that time, but were they any less? Did they not also live by FAITH? According to Hebrews 11...[u] they certainly did[/u], and that chapter is our plumb line...right out of the OT.

Many seem to think FAITH was shelved during the Law of silly is that? For even Moses lived by FAITH...his entire life.

David lived by FAITH, Job by FAITH, and it is the FAITH of these GREAT OT Saints Hebrews 11 say put us to shame, because they did it without the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Have a great and Blessed day Chris!


 2008/3/1 10:20

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