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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Judging unjustly

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 Re:

Quote:


Chris said:
Is there such a thing as a religious vigilante?

Another, Old Testament, passage came to mind. In this case the vigilante was praised!

Numbers 25:[color=990000]5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
6 ¶ And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel[/color]

Why is there such a contrast between what Simeon and Levi did and what Phineas did?

I have a thought or two, but want to leave that question open for others, as there could be a number of reasons...

You know, I think the Lord is using this thread to open things up to us concerning the difference between wrong and right judging.

I'm not recommending the death penalty for idolatry these days! In OT times the law had to be harsh against these things because that was the only way that sin could be kept within bounds. Things are changed since Christ came - at least for us...

...Although I'm not sure re the laws of a [i]nation[/i]?

Should there still be the death penalty for gross sins, such as murder, child abuse and witchcraft?

That's a topic for separate discussion.


in Him


Jeannette

 2008/2/22 13:11
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

interesting thread brothers and sisters. it has been good thinking of these things and what our motive and thought is on why we judge and how we judge.

matthew 7:1-5
" 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye".

notice that it is with the same judgement and measure that we use that will be measured back to us. so if we judge with holy judgement and love, zealous for His will, it will be measured back to us that way.

people use the first verse "of judge not lest you be judged", but neglect the context of the passage. the passage shows us not to judge [b]unrighteously[/b] by looking at their speck and neglecting our log. but pay attention to the verse 5. "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see [b]clearly[/b] to remove the speck from your brother’s eye". so we are to remove our plank and then remove the speck from their eye. it's not as if we don't remove their speck, it's only that we don't do that until we've removed our plank first.

[b]"clearly"[/b]
there's always that little word there [b]"clearly"[/b]. how can we see [b]clearly[/b] until we've gone to God to show us the specks and planks in our eyes. after hearing God and obeying God in our lives, we are able to see [b]clearly[/b] to help others to remove the speck and planks in their eye.

thanks for the thoughts guys, it will remain in my mind when thinking about judging righteously.
:-)

phil

 2008/2/22 14:12Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: clearly

Hi everyone.


Dear Jeannette and Phil, thank you both. You've given us much to consider.




Something that came to mind just now as I was meditating on these things and something which brother Phil wrote, is how our vision can be incomplete, or partial, even after we've been made to see?




I work with blind people. I shared a while back how I got this job [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16488&forum=44&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]here[/url] and I'm so gratefull to God for His gracious provision and compassion for me.


One of the things I've learned, or become aware of while working there is that there are degrees of blindness or sightedness? We have people there who are completely blind and those who can see fairly well, but with limitations.

There is a whole spectrum there, of blindness.



I think this can be true of spiritual sight also? How that we still see through a glass darkly? We may see some things very clearly and yet be blind to others, even things about ourselves.


A while back the pastor of the congregation I attend was expositing from Mark chapter 8, in particular the passage about the man that was blind in verse 22-25. He was looking at reasons why the Lord would have healed this man the way He did, touching him the second time.


Well, before this, the Lord had miraculously fed the multitudes, not once, but twice, and after being questioned by the Pharisees to perform a sign, and having left them, He warned the disciples about the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod(perhaps warning them about their corrupting influence?), and they thought that He was talking about bread!



After reminding the disciples of these miracles, the Lord says to them



[b][color=660000] How is it that ye do not understand? [/color][/b]



And then we have this record here, how after this the man was brought to them, and the Lord heals him the way He does, touching him not once, but twice.

In John's record of the Gospel he writes how the Lord said to the people that came looking for Him, after He had fed them,


[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. [/color][/b]


And Peter, even after it was revealed to him that the Lord was the Christ, yet see how he responded after the Lord began to tell them what was to happen to Him.


It would seem that in all of these things there was a great problem, for everyone, of seeing things clearly. Of seeing the Lord Jesus, not as we, or they, or any of us would expect to see Him. But as He is.


In His prayer, what is called His High Priestly prayer, the Lord says





[b][color=660000]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world[/color][/b]


and


[b][color=660000] And I have declared unto them thy name[/color][/b]


In the King James it goes on saying...


"and will declare [i]it[/i]" but the ESV has it this way


"and I will continue to make it known"



And that seems to be the right sense to me also, that the Lord has come and revealed God to us, [i]and continues to do so[/i].



We have so many things, both within and without, that may cloud our vision.





_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/23 11:06Profile









 Re: Judging unjustly


Dear Chris,

I really enjoyed your exposition of the story around Jacob's daughter, picking out 'commune' as well as the other points. It reminded me how much Jacob had loved Rachel, and made me wonder if he was sympathetic to Shechem, knowing how much it had matter to himself, to win the woman he loved.


On your last post, I wonder if you'd be interested (if you haven't already heard it), in a fairly recent sermon by Carter Conlon, based solely around the story of Jesus healing the blind man in which He touches him twice? One of the stronger themes in it, is how we see others.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=16016]Seeing through the hands of Jesus[/url] by Carter Conlon - 50m

 2008/2/23 11:19
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Regardless of Judging unjustly or whatever, I can tell you this below is what scares me the most and is why I am very "SLOW" to judge if ever I do.:-)

matthew 7:1-5
" 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.


_________________
Bill

 2008/2/23 11:41Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


Jeannette, how are you?



I was looking at the example you mentioned,


"Why is there such a contrast between what Simeon and Levi did and what Phineas did?"



Something which stands out to me is the first verse in the passage you selected for us, where it says...



"Moses said unto the judges of Israel..."


Am thinking here that this maybe reffers to those in Exodus 18:21?


And so here you would have, men in authority, given a charge by Moses. Now, did they do it? I don't know.



What do you think?


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/25 5:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone,

Jeannette, how are you?

I was looking at the example you mentioned,

"Why is there such a contrast between what Simeon and Levi did and what Phineas did?"

Something which stands out to me is the first verse in the passage you selected for us, where it says...

"Moses said unto the judges of Israel..."

Am thinking here that this maybe reffers to those in Exodus 18:21?

And so here you would have, men in authority, given a charge by Moses. Now, did they do it? I don't know.

What do you think?

Hi Chris

Sorry not to have answered this before.

Interesting that you referred to "the judges of Israel", I never noticed that aspect.

I do think God deals differently with nations than with individuals but have never been 100% sure how or why.

Maybe this is an example. The judicial law is different from the grace of God to individuals. The judicial law is concerned with justice only, and [i]cannot[/i] have mercy because wrongdoing [i]has[/i] to be punished, or there would be no justice.

Sin in a society has to be restrained, even though an individual sinner can be forgiven at the same time.

Since they abolished the death penalty for murder in the UK it has increased hugely.

Yet I've heard of prisoners on Death Row being saved and giving wonderful testimony before being (perhaps) eventually executed for their crimes.

Of course, the Old Testament dealing with God's chosen nation, so we can't expect it to be exactly the same, but I think the basic principle is still true.

Also, in Biblical times, many punishments were very harsh. As someone said, it wasn't so much "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", in those days, but an eye for a tooth!

In other words, the Law of Moses was to keep punishment within right and fair bounds.

In some Muslim countries they still cut off someone's hand for stealing, or execute someone for adultery (usually a woman, as they have almost no rights - compare John 8, the woman taken in adultery - if she was caught in the act, where was the man?)

Blessings

Jeannette

 2008/2/26 14:44









 Re:

I suppose, on the part of those putting judgement into effect there is a responsiblility indeed a [i]command[/i] to judge, so they weren't doing it of their own accord.

Probably the punishment of stoning, where the death penalty was given, was similar to that of a firing squad in more recent times. No-one knows who actually threw the killing stone or fired the fatal shot. The execution is by the community, or representatives of the community, not an individual taking revenge.

In the case of the man who took the Midianite woman, the Lord had actually just given a law against marrying idol worshippers, and the punishement under that law was actually being, or had just been done. Many had been slain for idolatry. The poeple were mourning before the Lord because of it.

Then, here comes this fellow, the son of one of the leaders, no less, with a pagan woman - right in the faces of the mourners over that very sin!

The act of Jacob's sons over their sister was very different. The Law (given later of course) for a man who lay with, or even raped, a girl who wasn't betrothed, was that he should be made to marry her, or pay her father the bride price. If Jacob's daughter wasn't already betrothed there was no need for the death penalty. Yet Simeon and Levi tricked and then killed, not only the young man responsible, but his father and all the men of their town!

That was way beyond merely administering justice, from any point of view!

Mmm, makes you think, doesn't it.

Blessings

jeannette

 2008/2/26 15:01
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Jeannette,



"I suppose, on the part of those putting judgement into effect there is a responsiblility indeed a command to judge, so they weren't doing it of their own accord."


This seems like a significant difference between the two stories.


In the later you have men who are in authority being given a charge by Moses. With Jacob's sons it looks as though they just acted on their own.



This week I was listening to a reading of Paul's letter to Titus and this passage really stood out...



"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;"


- Titus 1:7(KJV)








[i]...not self-willed, not soon angry...[/i]




Grace and peace,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/28 20:03Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: the meek

"The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way."


- Psalm 25:9(KJV)




Hi everyone, this morning I listened to part 2 of a message titled 'Clothed with Humility' given by K.P. Yohannan. I really appreciated it and thought it might be appropriate or helpfull for us in this topic.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15264&commentView=itemComments]Clothed in Humility, Part Two by K.P. Yohannan[/url]






As I was listening I thought about where the Lord said



[b][color=660000]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [/color][/b]




The definition of meekness that I heard some time ago and that has stayed with me is this, that it has the idea of 'strength, under control'.


That makes sense to me. And then I think of an ox, being put into a yoke; that his strength, is brought, under control.







_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/28 21:06Profile





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