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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Eze 39: a question

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 Which nations?

Was it a coincindence that I'm just reading a book about this passage in Ezekiel, as it relates to world affairs?

It's called "Epicentre" by Joel Rosenberg, a man who worked both for the White House and the Israeli government at different times, and has his finger on the pulse of world affairs. He wrote a novel about an Islamic suicide plane attack on the USA, [i]BEFORE[/i] 9/11. Other scenarios in his novels have also been reflected in world events that happened after they were written. Not becasue of any prophetic insight but from study of scripture and understanding of how world governments work.

Here's his site if anyone wants to look into it

Last night I came to the part which discusses which nations are probably to be involved:

These include what are now called:

Most or all of the former Soviet Union's predominantly Muslim states
Northern Sudan
Probably Turkey
Plus other nations not definitely identified in Ezekiel of whose present identity isn't certain - possibly even Germany.

apparently, in recent years, [i]for the first time in history[/i] a league between Russia and Iran (Persia) is now highly likely. This has to happen for the Gog-Magog war to take place as the Bible says.

Makes you think!

in Him


 2007/12/31 8:41



Katy-did wrote:
Even though many Jews are not saved, that doesn't mean they don't know their Bibles and we think we know more then they do?????

Their eyes may have been blinded concerning salvation until the fulness of the Gentiles come in, but that doesn't mean they are not well versed in the OT scriptures.

It is amazing how people brought up in the Word can have great insight, whether they are saved or not. You will know, Linn, that Mr North knew his Bible well and was able to pray, preach, do anything in the church - [i]before[/i] he was actually born again!

And I read the famous essay, "I and Thou" by Martin Buber, the Jewish philosopher, and was [i]amazed[/i] at his insight into aspects of Truth, though he was in no way a Christian.

I've also read commentary by modern Jewish scholars that show great understanding of the Scriptures and of the things of God, even though they don't know God!

As Paul says in Romans 9:

[color=990000]3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Of course he goes on to say that not all who are of Israel are the true, spiritual, Israel; yet there is still that precious legacy passed down through Abraham - "in the genes" as it were. Even though that won't gain individual salvation or acceptance with God. They are the ones [color=990000]"to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and [b]the giving of the law[/b], and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came"[/color]

So one would expect, from Jews who study the Scriptures, a deeper understanding of the Word, (or at least an unique [i]contribution[/i] to its understanding), than those of us from a Gentile background, even though it may never become saving faith in an individual.

...Maybe a more "holistic" understanding, because of having the same distinctive patterns of thought and history as the writers of Scripture.

Where it says, "The Day of the Lord" always without exception mean the wrath and vengence of God.

I'm sure that is correct, though have never yet managed to look up all the references and make a thorough study.

When it says, "and the Lord bare his right arm" certainly does mean judgement against Gentiles.

Katy, do you have those references? I tried to look it up but it doesn't seem to be put quite that way in the KJV which is the main study source (because good ocncordances like Strongs are based on that version).

(Maybe pm them if you like, unless it would be helpful to this discussion)



 2007/12/31 9:21



Katy-did wrote:
Dorcas, This is a judgement against those who believe God is finished with Israel, and a warning to those who think the Church replaced those promises...

...So be careful who's side your are playing on...

That is my concern too, Linn. Yet you will not hear.

The way you scorn others' interpretation of Scripture, especially if they are Jewish, showed when you said:
Sounds like a bit of undue re-interpretation of the word of God, as some rabbis have become used to doing.

Even if you were right in that instance, the manner of that jibe shows clearly where you are coming from in this matter.

It's ironic that [i]your[/i] interpretation of the verse in Ezekiel is also a re-interpretation, that the sense of the passage doesn't support in the least.

I will try to find an expert Hebrew scholar if you like, but am 100% sure he will say the same.

Love in Him (yes this [i]is[/i] said in love)


 2007/12/31 10:23


Jeannette, I could put many scriptures here to show this thuth.

God's Right arm is that which defends Israel against her enemies, and at the same time brings judgement against the enemies. there are only two classifications on earth...Jew and Gentile.

Here's one I like:

But it's fun too to look up and study. This verse is very obvious, however, others, you will have to read the situation going on, just like having to read all of Ezekiel 39 to understand what is being said.

It's Good to read Ezeliel 38 first to go with 39.

Isaiah 63:12
who sent his glorious arm of power to be at Moses' right hand, who divided the waters before them, to gain for himself everlasting renown,

This is what Jewish Scholars are so wonderful at....understanding deeper meanings. Understanding Types and Shaddows. Understanding what numbers mean....(not numerology, as some may think....but the number 7 is very significant, 12 is very significant, etc. etc.

Love in Christ

 2007/12/31 13:44


Just thought I'd add this too. It's so great.

God is known as the " Strength of Israel"

And the Joy of the Lord is OUR Srength.

ADDED: Joy is not a feeling, Joy is the Person of Jesus Christ IN YOU!

You can't have the Joy OF the Lord, unless you are one OF the Lords.

Compare these scriptures and I hope you are blessed by these.

God can overcome his enemies without our hands, but we cannot so much as defend ourselves without his arm.

One of God's names is, "the Strength of Israel", I Sam. 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

I love the Psalms, and the Lord taught me so many things from the psalms.

For one David said

Psalm 18:33-35
33He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.

34He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

35Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.

Psalm 144
1Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

2My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me.

3LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him!

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think
any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God, 2nd Corinthians 3:5

Abide in Me and I in you, as ye can do NOTHING of Yourselves.....John 15:5

But here it is,

Put on the Whole Armour of God, that ye may be able to stand.

Spiritual warefare...and we all have it, always have and always will.

The ARM of the Lord is your strength. Yet, there are so many ways God has made this truth real, not only to David in the physical realm , but to His Saints in the spiritual realm.

This is genuine true Faith in God, and see how it parallels Ephesians ....of putting on the whole armour of God..We are Putting on Christ!

Psalm 91
1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

2I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

5Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

6Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.

7A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Love in Christ

 2007/12/31 16:01


Thanks Katy. I thought you meant the [i]exact[/i] wording, i.e. "and the Lord bare his right arm", so tried to look up "his right arm" or "right arm" and couldn't find it!

Of course the message of the Lord's "arm" in judgment [i]is[/i] found, though I haven't personally done a study as you have, to show that it is always referring to the Gentile nations...

Individual verses have to be kept in context, not taken out and looked at on their own, as you also pointed out.


Ezekiel 38-9 has important implications re events in the present-day Middle East, so its correct interpretation is important.

I've nearly finished that book. The only fault I find personally is that, in the chapter on the rebuilding of the Temple, he only speaks of the "temple made with hands", (whose building of course has to be completed too, as is foretold) But he doesn't mention the "Temple which is His Body".

Hopefully he [i]is[/i] aware of the spiritual factor as well, but it isn't the topic of the book, so maybe that's why it isn't spoken of.

Scripture makes it clear that the spiritual and the natural are intertwined in world events. Natural events, such as rise and fall of empires, alliances and wars between nations etc, merely reflect the spiritual realities behind them. And spiritual powers [i]drive[/i] natural events too, according to God's plan. So that, in Daniel and Revelation for example, the "four beasts" represent both spiritual forces and actual world empires, and the "Prince of Persia" in Daniel represents both the human monarch and the demonic principality behind his throne.

Does that make sense? Maybe not expressed very clearly, but it's how I'm beginning to understand the relationship between spiritual and natural in world affairs.

in Him


 2008/1/1 6:37


Scripture makes it clear that the spiritual and the natural are intertwined in world events. Natural events, such as rise and fall of empires, alliances and wars between nations etc, merely reflect the spiritual realities behind them.

That's why its so difficult sometimes to know exactly what God [i]means[/i] by things foretold in Scripture. Especially as there are multiple layers of Truth, and often multiple fulfillments.

To think that events foretold in the Bible (such as the rebuilding of the pyhysical Temple) are merely natural and literal is error.

It is also error to see things as purely spiritual and discount the natural. The first springs from materialism and the second from Gnosticism.

The Bible holds both aspects together in balance.

Soeone mentioned recently that the Lord often veils His meaning so that events are only seen for what they are with the eyes of faith.

Only two people, in the whole of Israel, were sufficiently in the Spirit recognise Jesus as the Messiah when He was born. Even though it was exactly as the Scriptures foretold. Later, even the disciples were very slow to begin to understand who He was.

Of course, His second coming will be different - everyone will know - but how many will be first taken in by the Antichrist?

A disturbing thought...



 2008/1/1 6:55


This does seem to be the discussion among many who wonder and many who scoff.

It's no laughing matter though, that there is an Israel TODAY that many over history had scoffed at too...yet here we are, seeing it with our own eyes.

Are these the times and seasons we are to discern as well. I say Yes.

The Book of Daniel seem to be a key to most of these end time Prophecies for Israel called..."The Time of Jacob's Trouble".

Excellent students of Prophecy KNOW there are future events that have to take place.

God has already decalared in His Word ( Romans 11) He has a plan for National Israel who was set aside for this moment we call the Church Age, made up of both Jew and Gentile, called ONE NEW MAN, breaking down the walls between us, and our life is the very LIFE of Christ in you.

When Paul writes in Thessealonians "He(anti-christ) Sits in the TEMPLE as though he were God" is he talking about a Literal Temple? Notice the words Paul uses and comforts the Saints who were suffering persecution and they thought it was about ((THIS TIME...The Day of the Lord)) and Paul said, " The Day of the Lord" has not come. They confused the persecution of the Church and their sufferings with the end time last days Day of God's Wrath and Judgement.

As a Christian, whatever may come in our future, remember when Jesus Christ Himself takes teh throne of David, WE will be with Him , already Glorified together with Christ. So the way I look at it, if i'm still here and someone sits on that throne in my lifetime, and I'm still in this flesh body......It's Not Jesus's anti-christ.

In the OT, there are TWO Comings of Messiah, one as KING and one as Redeemer. For Jesus Christ to take the Throne as King, He first needed to be redeemer, die and rise again, in a Physical Gloridied Body to be KING...and that will yet be.
(Redeemer didn't cancel out made it possible).

Here are words of wisdom ( not mine) to consider.

((((("Impossible." "It's never going to happen." "It will be the end of the Middle East as we know it." These are comments from people whenever someone mentions that Israel will build the Third Temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem. I have to say that I would totally agree with them due to the political climate in the world. However, there's this little book called the Bible that explains not only that the Jews will build a Third Temple, but gives instruction to the two witnesses as to where exactly to build it on the temple mount. Revelation 11:2-3 states, "But leave out of your measuring the court outside the sanctuary of God; omit that, for it is given over to the Gentiles (the nations), and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months (three and one-half years). And I will grant the power of prophecy to My two witnesses for 1,260 (42 months; three and one-half years), dressed in sackcloth." Although there is some dispute as to whom the two witnesses are-Enoch? Elijah? Moses?-there is not a dispute that the third Jewish Temple will be built, the only question is when.

The first Jewish temple (Solomon's temple) was built circa 950 BC and was destroyed in 586 BC by the Babylonians. The second Jewish temple (Herod's Temple) was built around 20 BC and was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Since then the only remnant of Herod's Temple has been the Western Wall. Islamic buildings, the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque, now occupy the area on the mount where the temples previously stood. Decades after the destruction of Herod's Temple, the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa in 688 AD and 705 AD, respectively. The Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa are two of the most important symbols in Islam. However, ever since Israel reclaimed the city of Jerusalem during the 1967 Six-Day war, there has been ongoing discussion among the Jews regarding rebuilding the third temple where the two Islamic buildings currently stand.

Gershon Saloman, an Israeli soldier during the Six-Day War, has never forgotten the words his commander exclaimed after victory, "The Temple Mount is again our hands." That same day, Saloman heard God's call for him to rebuild the Third Temple. Since 1967, Saloman has formed the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement; their objectives are:

Liberating the Temple Mount from the Arab occupation of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque.
Consecrating the Temple Mount to the Name of God.
Rebuilding the Third Temple in accordance with the words of all the Hebrew prophets.

As of May 25, 2006, the Faithful Movement has dedicated two 6 ½ ton marble cornerstones for the Third Temple. The stones for the future temple are already prepared.

Even more amazing, on October 10, 2006, MK (Member of Knesset) Uri Ariel drew up plans to construct a synagogue on the temple mount. How unbelievable! Ariel has announced his intentions publicly to the world. Not to mention, British historian, Sean Kingsley claims in his book, God's Gold, that the Temple treasures stolen by the Romans in 70 AD are buried in the Judean wilderness waiting to be discovered.

Many people believe that after Gog-Magog war, with Israel's miraculous defeat of the Persian and Russian army; the Jews will build the Third Temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem to the God of Israel who astoundingly saved them from their enemies. The Temple sacrifices of the past will once again be instituted.

Seemingly unbelievable events are rapidly taking place in the world that many thought would never happen. As Biblical prophecy continues to line-up, remember the words of Jesus Christ, "When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.))))

Love in Christ

 2008/1/1 9:08


Just a note for those who believe the Book of Daniel is referring to what happened in 70AD....that John wrote Revelation in 95AD, 25 years later...of things YET to come.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did ;-)

Daniel 2:34-35

The *Times of the Gentiles*, not to be confused with the fulness of the Gentiles.

Thou sawest a STONE was cut without hands (((((( Christ Daniel 2:44-46, Zachariah 4:7 Genesis 49:24;1 Peter 2:8))))
which smote the image upon it's feet, that were of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then were the iron and clay the brass, the silver and gold broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff( matthew 3:2) of the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them, and the stone that smoteth the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

******Zechariah 12:8-14 & 13:1**** Promised TO ISRAEL.

 2008/1/1 10:00

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi Jeannette,

"That's why its so difficult sometimes to know exactly what God means by things foretold in Scripture."

But people talk like they know for certain anyway.

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/1 11:03Profile

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