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ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

Hi again DesiJr,


"If it is a work...then is it saving faith?"


Maybe another way to look at the question is to ask: whose work is it?


I mentioned before John 6:29. Maybe take a look at Luke 8:10, 10:22, and John 6:45.



Take care for now,


Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/31 15:04Profile
roadsign
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 Re: faith in our faith - not a good thing!

Quote:
If it is a work...then is it saving faith?"


We can run around in circles over words forever and we just find ourselves spinning.
Let’s admit, work is really not a bad thing! And faith can be intensely hard work at times – especially when trying to overcoming the constant voices of doubt. Maybe it would be better to ask the question: “How do we acquire eternal life?” Let’s admit, we can never get that by anything we do any more that we could make ourselves get born in the first place. Really our faith cannot give us new life. Only God can. We can be tempted to idolize “faith” and turn it into a magical formula. How many false conversations have been sanctioned by the human stamp labeled: APPROVED BY FAITH but is essentially a faith in one's faith.

Let's admit, faith can be a work of the flesh - nothing more than a human construct. That cannot save us.

I remember reading a portion by Duncan Campbell in which he distinguished between natural faith and supernatural faith. He points out that natural faith cannot save us. Of course, that begs the question, how can we know the difference?

Maybe this is one question that we should let God himself answer. Because if we try, we just end up creating a "sure"-fix formula that sends us spinning again. And then we put our faith in our formula.

“The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.” Rom. 8:16

The challenge: Can we trust God to illuminate by his Spirit, or do we trust in our own human attempts to do so. Now that would also be a work apart from faith.

“..and everything that does not come from faith is sin.” Rom. 14:23

Diane



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Diane

 2007/12/31 15:57Profile
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 Re:

hi, the difference between faith and presumption is that word from God. if you have a word from God in your heart{knower)and you believe to obedience this only is bible faith.jim p faith without works is dead (not faith at all)

 2007/12/31 16:36Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Faith without works is dead?

Then this must also apply; works without faith are dead self works. Which comes first the Chicken or the egg?

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Works or Faith, which is it that does the work of Jesus Christ that is born again in us?
It must be His Faith that gives us His Faith to do the works of Him. Who are we without Christ?
What can we do without Christ? With Christ in us what can we do?

The Answer to all these is: without Him doing the works in us our works are worthless, without Him giving His Faith to our Faith our faith is dead. With Christ, faith is the beginning of good works in Christ Jesus. Let us have this mind which was in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 2:1-13 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is God through Jesus Christ in us that is working out His good pleasure. This must be our way of thinking and keep these things in our mind and the things of Christ will become increasingly line upon line and precept upon precept the works we are to be willing to have done through us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, by whom we have new life and live in and for and through Him.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/1/1 1:09Profile
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 Re:

hi, i will tear this verse out of my bible 'faith without works is dead' i couldn't find the chicken verse. iam with you that works do not save anyone. obedience is better than sacrifice. Jesus calls you.. you come. thats all... jimp

 2008/1/1 6:08Profile
ChrisJD
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 Re:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [i]it is[/i] the gift of God:"

- Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8






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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/1 10:31Profile
ChrisJD
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 Re:

For we are his workmanship...


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/1 10:32Profile
Logic
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 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Faith without works is dead?

Then this must also apply; works without faith are dead self works. Which comes first the Chicken or the egg?

That is correct.
[b]Heb 6:1[/b] [color=990000]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto maturity; not laying again the foundation of repentance from [b]dead works[/b], and of faith toward God,[/color]
[b]Heb 9:14[/b] [color=990000]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from [b]dead works[/b] to serve the living God?[/color]

Dead works would be legalism, works of the law which is opposed to works of faith.

I would say that the Chicken came first, God made animals, not eggs.
He made Adam & Eve fully grown, therefore, HE made the Chicken fully grown, not the egg.
Quote:
Works or Faith, which is it that does the work of Jesus Christ that is born again in us?

Please, stop it, I am tired of hearing this "Jesus Christ that is born again in us"

Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us.

Quote:
The Answer to all these is: without Him doing the works in us our works are worthless,

Show me where Jesus is doing our works of faith.
He enables us to bear fruit, but HE does not bear the fruit for us.
Quote:
without Him giving His Faith to our Faith our faith is dead.

Where does Christ "give us HIS faith"?
Quote:
faith is the beginning of good works in Christ Jesus.

Chapter & verse please.
Faith is not the beginning, but the only way for "good works"
Quote:
It is God through Jesus Christ in us that is working out His good pleasure.

No, it is to for [b]us to will & to do of[/b] His good pleasure.
In other words, it is God working on our will that we may be desiring to work obediantly out of love for HIM for the sake of His delight.

Quote:
...the things of Christ will become increasingly line upon line and precept upon precept...

This is not a good thing.

[b]Isa 28:10-13[/b] [color=990000]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
[b]:11[/b] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[b]:12[/b] To whom he said, This is the rest with which you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
[b]:13[/b] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; [u][b]that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken[/b][/u].[/color]

 2008/1/1 11:21Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Logic,


I wanted to offer some passages in regards to some of the questions you have here. I do not know if Phillip had these things in mind or not. I hope they will be helpfull though.


You asked,


"Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us."


One passage that comes to mind is Galatians 4:19.

But I don't know exactly what Phillip means for sure.



Also,


"Show me where Jesus is doing our works of faith.
He enables us to bear fruit, but HE does not bear the fruit for us."


What I think of is Galatians chapter 5 which describes the fruit of the Spirit. That it is His fruit.



Also,



"Where does Christ "give us HIS faith"?"


Not sure about this either, but I think the scripture is indicating that faith in Christ is the work of God:



"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."


- John chapter 6 verse 29(KJV)


And also,


"No, it is to for us to will & to do of His good pleasure. In other words, it is God working on our will that we may be desiring to work obediantly out of love for HIM for the sake of His delight."



What came to mind was this from Hebrews 13:21 where it says...



"...working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ"



Take care for now,


Chris



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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/1 12:17Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,

Hi.
Quote:
Quote:
"Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us."

One passage that comes to mind is Galatians 4:19.

[b]Gal 4:19[/b] [color=990000]My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,[/color]
That would be a Christ like character, not christ Himself being born in us.
Quote:
Quote:
"Show me where Jesus is doing our works of faith.
He enables us to bear fruit, but HE does not bear the fruit for us."

What I think of is Galatians chapter 5 which describes the fruit of the Spirit. That it is His fruit.

His fruit which we bear.
He does not bear the fruit, we do.

[b]Joh 15:4[/b] [color=990000]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.[/color]
The branch(us) bears the fruit, the vine(Jesus) enables the branch.
Quote:
Quote:
"Where does Christ "give us HIS faith"?"

Not sure about this either, but I think the scripture is indicating that faith in Christ is the work of God:
"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

The work that we do of GOD(not from GOD) is to believe on Him.
We do GOD"s work by believing.
Quote:
Quote:
"No, it is to for us to will & to do of His good pleasure. In other words, it is God working on our will that we may be desiring to work obediantly out of love for HIM for the sake of His delight."

What came to mind was this from Hebrews 13:21 where it says...
"...working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ"

[b]
[b]Heb 13:20[/b][color=990000]Now the God of peace...[/color]
Hebrews 13:21[/b] [color=990000]Make you complete in every good work [b]to do[/b] his will, to do in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.[/color]In other words:
Now the God of peace(Heb 13:20)...
...(Heb 13:21)Make you complete in every good work causing to bring forth HIS will, and that is causing to bring forth in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

 2008/1/1 13:49Profile





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