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DesiJr
Member



Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

Question:

If these statements are true:

Holy Spirit alone by a Sovereign act of God convicts you of your sin.

Holy Spirit alone reveals to you Jesus as the Lord and how you must surrender your life to Him as a sacrifice because He alone is the Sovereign King of all for eternity.

Does believing or having faith that God did this work in you by the Holy Spirit constitute a work of man? In other words, is the act of believing or having faith, a work?

If it is a work...then is it saving faith?

If it isn't a work then what is the definition of true "belief" or true "faith"?


 2007/12/28 15:53Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same WORKS that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 10:37 If I do not the WORKS of my Father, [b]believe me not[/b]. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, BELIEVE THE WORKS: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the WORKS. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very WORKS' SAKE.

To answer your question directly, yes, even believing is a Work of God produced in us by God -not of man.

1 Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your [b]WORK OF FAITH[/b], and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thess 2:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the [b]WORK OF FAITH[/b] with power:

Again I will state that even faith, is a work of God produced in us by God, according to the work or operation of God done upon us.

We are of course saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH-but also knowing that faith without works is deed, or I could say it this way faith without fruit is dead.

James 2 is great in understanding this: James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, AND NOT by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified BY WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I pray this helps, this is just my understanding of it. :0)



 2007/12/28 16:15Profile
DesiJr
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Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re:

So if what you say is true (and I believe it is) can man then be compelled by the Spirit to believe and have faith and yet deny the Spirit to bear fruit in his life?

 2007/12/28 16:20Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Well I believe my answer to that would be:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Heb 10: 26 For if WE (the Church) SIN WILLFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The reason why I quote this two verses is because both of these verses describe genuine believers who at some point being to deny the Spirit and the Lordship of Jesus Christ-thus they become Christians who continually walk against the Spirit or in denying of the Spirit. in which it brings Christ words to life:

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (understanding the "speaketh" is not always verbal, but even in actions)

Or another way I would answer that is: Christ told all those who came to him to ABIDE (remain) in him, and he in them.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye [b]CONTINUE[/b] in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (It is not really per se if you started the race, it is if you finish the race and how you do so)

Jesus once said " he choose" the 12 and one of them "was" a devil-referring to Judas-now Jesus, even being the Spirit compelled/choose Judas to believe for a season, but then to deny Jesus-which I might add again He is the Spirit-thus Judas did not "CONTINUE,ENDURE, or ABIDE" in or Christ to remain fruitful and faithful UNTIL THE END. I say that to say, I don't believe Judas will be the only person like this....just think of the " great FALLING away"

 2007/12/28 16:32Profile
DesiJr
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Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re:

So then if God by the Spirit draws man to himself and convinces man by the Spirit that he must surrender to God...man can reject this compelling by the Spirit of God?

 2007/12/28 17:00Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

The same way that Jesus said " not my will, but thine, be done" is the same way that a person could say the opposite of this:

In other words, I do believe one could not choose to surrender or yield his will to the Father-in Luke 22:42 you see Jesus making a conscience decision to yield to the Father's will, even though Jesus had the Spirit without measure and though it was even the Father the dwelleth in him that did the works-he still had to subject his will to the Father-I do believe there are people who do NOT subject their will to the will of the Father.

Though Jesus is in the Father, and the Father in Jesus, He still had to submit his will-for one not to submit to the Spirit would be to reject the Spirit (rebel against)

 2007/12/28 17:07Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

hi,faith is hearing that voice inside your knower, believing it unto obedience.by faith noah built... by faith abram left... all examples in the scrpture of faith demonstrate this truth.. faith without corresponding action is not faith at all.. we hear the good news and the voice tells us that God loves me and it is my time to react to His calling in obedience..jimp

 2007/12/28 17:44Profile









 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?



Hi DesiJr,

Is breathing 'a work'?

Is eating 'a work'?


Can we distinguish between the hunger for oxygen and the hunger for food?


I'm asking because I'm not sure what you're trying to find out, and whether you're trying to understand something about God, or man, or both.


Did you consciously frame your question in non-biblical terminology, or, are you thinking about the Spirit's work and that's why you mention Him?

By 'non-biblical' I mean a phrase like this: 'Holy Spirit alone reveals to you Jesus'. Do you remember that Jesus said:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Below are some thoughts on your question by Oswald Chambers.

October 28th.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:10

[color=006699]I am not saved by believing; I realize I am saved by believing. It is not repentance that saves me, repentance is the sign that I realize what God has done in Christ Jesus. The danger is to put the emphasis on the effect instead of on the cause. It is my obedience that puts me right with God, my consecration. Never! I am put right with God because prior to all, Christ died. When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals I can accept, instantly the stupendous Atonement of Jesus Christ rushes me into a right relationship with God; and by the supernatural miracle of God's grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, not because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. The Spirit of God brings it with a breaking, all-over light, and I know, though I do not know how, that I am saved.

The salvation of God does not stand on human logic, it stands on the sacrificial Death of Jesus. We can be born again because of the Atonement of Our Lord. Sinful men and women can be changed into new creatures, not by their repentance or their belief, but by the marvellous work of God in Christ Jesus which is prior to all experience. The impregnable safety of justification and sanctification is God Himself. We have not to work out these things ourselves; they have been worked out by the Atonement. The supernatural becomes natural by the miracle of God; there is the realization of what Jesus Christ has already done - "It is finished." [/color]


What do you think about all that now?

 2007/12/28 20:41
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

Hi DesiJr, in case you haven't, have a look at John 6:29.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/30 1:27Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

Quote:
DesiJr wrote:
Question:

If these statements are true:

Holy Spirit alone by a Sovereign act of God convicts you of your sin.

[b]John 16:8[/b] [color=990000]And when he is come, [b]He will convict the world of [u]sin[/u][/b], and of righteousness, and of judgment:[/color]


Quote:
Holy Spirit [b]alone[/b] reveals to you Jesus as the Lord and how you must surrender your life to Him as a sacrifice because He alone is the Sovereign King of all for eternity.

The Scriptures would also reveal Jesus to you as the Lord and how you must surrender your life to Him.

Quote:
Does believing or having faith that God did this work in you by the Holy Spirit constitute a work of man?

What is wrong with work if it's not "works of the law"(Rom 4:2)?
[b]Heb 4:11[/b] [color=990000]Let us [b]labor[/b] therefore to enter into that rest...[/color]
[b]Jamess 2:21[/b] [color=990000]Was not Abraham our father [b]justified by works[/b], when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?[/color]

Quote:
In other words, is the act of believing or having faith, a work?

It better be.
[b]James 2:26[/b] [color=990000]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/color]
I have a freind that "believes" but he has no works(fruit).
He is not saved, but talks religiously and proclaimes Jesus.

 2007/12/31 14:28Profile





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