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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Ok, so here's an Arminian song-

And now, the end is here
And so I face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
I've lived a life that's full
I traveled each and ev'ry highway
And more, much more than this, I did it my way

Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do and saw it through without exemption
I planned each charted course, each careful step along the byway
And more, much more than this, I did it my way

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew
But through it all, when there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall and did it my way

I've loved, I've laughed and cried
I've had my fill, my share of losing
And now, as tears subside, I find it all so amusing
To think I did all that
And may I say, not in a shy way,
"Oh, no, oh, no, not me, I did it my way"

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught
To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels
The record shows I took the blows and did it my way!


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/12/27 12:31Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

While I'm here, allow me to ask you all a question. When the Egyptians were drowned in the Red Sea, was it against their "free will"?

I mean they probably wanted to continue living and harming the Israelites right? But their will was never allowed to decide their fate, and God never checked with them to make sure He could drown them first.

How about the Pharisees? Didn't they want Jesus to remain dead? Did God run it by them first and get their permission to raise Christ?

No? How dare He inflict His will upon them!!

Seriously, I am shocked by the lack of any Biblical exegesis used to disprove Calvinism, and no simply quoting 2 Peter 3:9 does not clear up anything. Anyone can take a verse out of context and make it say anything. This verse in its context is written to "the elect", and Peter is letting them know, that none of the elect shall perish, but will come to repentance.

To make is mean that God wills for every human that has ever lived to come to repentance is not the logical or Scriptural conclusion. If so, then we see God as a deranged fool who though he wanted Pharaoh to come to repentance then goes on to say, "I created you for this very purpose."(Which was not salvation)

We also have Judas Iscariot who Jesus said was "the son of perdition", and that he(Judas) was fulfilling Scripture by being just that.

Seems God does what He wants with whom He wants, when He wants. Why? Because all things are created by Him, for Him, and for His glory, He is God, we are not.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/12/27 12:49Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Why is it none of you can keep from adding your log to the fire.


So long as you do don't claim you're burning something for the Lord.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/27 12:53Profile









 Re: New Calvinistic song


Hi Patrick,

I don't know why you want so much to be known as a Calvinist? except I keep hearing everyone has to be one or the other over in the US. Why not just hold to scripture? You would find a greater measure of agreement that way and you would not be relinquishing the sovereignty of God.

You said

Quote:
I mean they probably wanted to continue living and harming the Israelites right? But their will was never allowed to decide their fate, and God never checked with them to make sure He could drown them first.

One of the marks of proper wrestling for truth, is that neither side need mockery (or ridicule) to show forth a valid understanding of the written word. I don't think that's a very good example, as God was preparing to speak to [i]His[/i] people in great detail [u]first[/u]. It was to be about fifteen centuries before Egyptians could be evangelised. Okay... you were only joking? Or you want your point to be taken seriously....? Sorry if I sound jaded by these controversies. I am. That's my fault, not yours. But let me know if you're particularly offended, and I'll apologise unreservedly... It's not often something like this [i]gets to me[/i]. :-?



 2007/12/27 13:43
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I don't know why you want so much to be known as a Calvinist?



Sister I could care less about being known as a Calvinist.

What upsets me is the condescending, and oft times humiliating way in which men who hold to Reformed, Lutheran, or Calvinist ideas are treated here.

It's as if only those who agree with Finney and Wesley are allowed to say anything, and anyone speaking to the contrary are shunned or poo-pooed into thinking they are the "heretics", when in truth, 500 or so years ago the men that are so heralded by many here would have been branded as heretics.

There is no common ground between Calvinism and Arminianism, nor does Scripture teach this. Sadly we all use the same terms with different meanings. For example when I speak of grace, I mean God's regenerating, and sustaining work in a person's heart.

The Arminian has more of a Roman Catholic view of grace, that being something a person must cooperate with in order for it be effective.

When we speak of justification, we speak of two different ideas. I say justification is a once for all declaration of innocence which is made real by faith. Whereas the Arminian would say justification is only as good as the person's sanctification. Again this is more inline with Roman Catholic doctrine than Scripture.

The blatant disregard for serious exegesis(taking out from the text), and the heralding of isogesis(reading into, or putting into the text) is absolutely mind boggling.

Maybe it's time I go, I don't know. I have and do enjoy many of the brethren here. But I see a very dangerous trend developing here that was common in the times of Luther and Calvin.

The idea that no one needs to be taught, and that God can speak to individuals, and they can be the sole interpreter of what is being said without any regard for Biblical truth, or being consistent with the Bible's teaching is dangerous. Sadly I in the past followed such ways, and have realized that it led me to more rebellion than anything else. I became one who "got it", while others did not.

People filled my ears with garbage about me being a prophet, and blah, blah, blah....

And I failed miserably at everything my hand touched. All praise to Him who caused this failure, for had He not, I surely would have been lost because I was trusting in my works, and not His work alone.

He has saved me! Not because I am good, or because I made a decision for Him. But because He fore-loved me while I was yet a sinner. All I brought to the equation was my sin, and damnation.

Blessings and grace to you.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/12/27 14:11Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I prefer this Calvinistic song by Cowper...

"There is a fountain filled with blood"

There is a fountain filled with blood drawn from Emmanuel’s veins;
And sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains.
Lose all their guilty stains, lose all their guilty stains;
And sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains.

The dying thief rejoiced to see that fountain in his day;
And there have I, though vile as he, washed all my sins away.
Washed all my sins away, washed all my sins away;
And there have I, though vile as he, washed all my sins away.

Dear dying Lamb, Thy precious blood shall never lose its power
Till all the ransomed church of God be saved, to sin no more.
Be saved, to sin no more, be saved, to sin no more;
Till all the ransomed church of God be saved, to sin no more.

E’er since, by faith, I saw the stream Thy flowing wounds supply,
Redeeming love has been my theme, and shall be till I die.
And shall be till I die, and shall be till I die;
Redeeming love has been my theme, and shall be till I die.

Then in a nobler, sweeter song, I’ll sing Thy power to save,
When this poor lisping, stammering tongue lies silent in the grave.
Lies silent in the grave, lies silent in the grave;
When this poor lisping, stammering tongue lies silent in the grave.

Lord, I believe Thou hast prepared, unworthy though I be,
For me a blood bought free reward, a golden harp for me!
’Tis strung and tuned for endless years, and formed by power divine,
To sound in God the Father’s ears no other name but Thine.

 2007/12/27 14:48Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
I prefer this Calvinistic song by Cowper...

"There is a fountain filled with blood"

brother mike, what an excellent selection for a song. one of my favorite hymns, it blesses me to just read the lyrics, muchless sing them as well.

ps can we please just call it a christian's song? do we have to put a label on it? oh, i hope not.

thanks again mike,
phil

 2007/12/27 14:53Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Roaringlamb,

[b]This got my sympathy[/b]: 'What upsets me is the condescending, and oft times humiliating way in which men who hold to Reformed, Lutheran, or Calvinist ideas are treated here.'

[b]Then this lost it[/b]: 'The Arminian has more of a Roman Catholic view of grace, that being something a person must cooperate with in order for it be effective.'

Paul Washer said that in his prayer he was a Calvinist and in his preaching he was an Arminian, I have to agree that I feel the same way. I'm not going to deny either one, but there is a balance to both. You're so quick to plead for sympathy, then rashly you trash talk the other party.

'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,' I think that's a primary teaching of our Lord. If you want the respect of others, give them more respect, maybe more than they deserve. [b]Until you can show respect to others, don't complain that you don't recieve any[/b].


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/12/27 16:05Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, I think that's a primary teaching of our Lord. If you want the respect of others, give them more respect, maybe more than they deserve. Until you can do that, don't complain.



Brother Ian, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it would be a lie to call it any thing other than a duck.

The truth is the truth, Arminians as well as Roman Catholics subscribe to Prevenient grace which must be cooperated with in order for a man to begin his salvation. Then, he must be sanctified in order to be justified.

Sad, but we have lost alot of ground in the last 500 years, and in the wrong direction.

Grace and peace to you


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/12/27 16:10Profile









 Re: A Calvinistic song

D
ear Patrick,

Well, this is a long post... it got a little more philosophical as it went along. Please take from it what you can, and don't think I'm trying to move you off your hard-won safety in God.

Thank you for your gracious reply to my groanings. Perhaps American Arminianism is genuinely off the rails. You see, in my simple way of understanding the difference, it is only - and I mean only - a matter of emphasis. It should not be possible - especially after having someone as studied as philologos explaining terms of reference (though he hasn't been around much lately) - to pin down each word within its scriptural context, and let scripture be the standard. Of course each person is different and the way God's dealings with them appears to each one may differ greatly.

But in the end, whoever assents to the call of God on their life, finds that the provision for their needs is identical - Jesus Christ, crucified, risen, ascended and the gift of the Holy Spirit for sonship and service. Am I overstating the case for faith? I have recently begun to think of 'faith' as [i]my[/i] faith, but until then (I mean for many years) I could only lay hold of it as His faith - I held onto His faith-fullness.

I think one only has to look at the many different ways God won battles for His people in the Old Testament, to see how many different ways the death and resurrection of Jesus may be communicated to the understanding of one hearing the gospel to their own heart.

Really, I had no intention of pushing you away from SI. I opened the thread again fully expecting to have to apologise. I really am sorry you are feeling in such a minority.... but... does that matter? As long as you are open to keep adjusting your perspective according to God's revelation to your heart and mind, you will find yourself more and more comfortable even with those who think they are 'Arminians'. I confess that to me this is not the way for a person to present themselves any more than as a Calvinist.

Quote:
There is no common ground between Calvinism and Arminianism, nor does Scripture teach this. Sadly we all use the same terms with different meanings.

Objectively though, this cannot be God's fault, although it may be a problem to Him. It is certainly a problem to us, and I would strongly suggest it is the people who need to change their view of scriptural terminology, rather than God to change His, who arranged for His revelation to be recorded for us.

Quote:
For example when I speak of grace, I mean God's regenerating, and sustaining work in a person's heart.

This perplexes me, as I remember hearing it described by a seasoned preacher as being like the air in its abundance and life-supporting properties. But grace itself is not what we eat or drink or receive.... rather, it supplies the medium within which we eat the word, drink of the water of life and receive the Spirit of Truth. (I realise there are many other tags I could have mentioned, but these are readily identifyable in scripture.) Attributing more to grace than scripture does... is problematic for me also.

Quote:
The idea that no one needs to be taught, and that God can speak to individuals, and they can be the sole interpreter of what is being said without any regard for Biblical truth, or being consistent with the Bible's teaching is dangerous.

Of course. But only certain people are called to be mechanics with doctrine. Others simply climb into the vehicle and let the driver take them where they need to go. Still others walk. They benefit from the existence of such vehicles in other ways.

Quote:
I surely would have been lost because I was trusting in my works, and not His work alone.

We all need the security of being able to give our testimony in reasonably recognisable terms. The most important part of it though, must be the way looking to Christ has opened the way to the Father.

I think I'm beginning to understand something about those who settle on [i]calling themselves 'Calvinists'[/i]... It seems they are people who have a large measure of natural ability, - go-getters, doers, never-say-diers, triers and try againers - and by the time God has separated them from their efforts, they have lost all consciousness of ever having invited Him or [i]begged[/i] Him to come to them and sort them out, and they are convinced they have been so much trouble to Him, it's a miracle He has stuck with them all this time... This convinces them they have been more especially chosen than some who don't give themselves the same degree of trouble on certain points about coming to God - or over believing He has come to them.

This battle for assurance, threatens both a person's capabilties and vulnerabilities. All the while God is gently coaxing the fighter onto His ground, in such a way that he never feels threatened and ends up thinking he's been selected specially - which brings its own problems. While there are others, whom if God were not to present Himself in such a way as those people thought they were [i]choosing [b]Him[/b][/i], they would never put themselves through the ignominy of being unable to explain why they believed - right from the start of making a commitment.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole thing here.... but God takes a different route to coax [i]them[/i] off their ground and onto His. In both cases, it is an elaborate wooing procedure - entirely at God's orchestration - which catches some people more unaware than others. But it matters [i][b]to Him[/i][/b] to win each one - whatever it takes - that His Bride may be brought closer to completion. How these two different kinds of people perceive His work is what causes discussion .... His work is not in question.... only how to define it. Perhaps the lingering question over total assurance, commonly felt by an 'Arminian' is the way God deals with their variety of self-assurance? Trying to codify these perceptions into theologies just leads to a lot of .... hot air and unnecessary suspicion... while all the time God is the same, knows what He's doing and usually gets what He wants. Amen.

Well, I don't know how much sense that made, but I hope you'll tell me... :-)

 2007/12/27 16:12





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