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 Re: Am I a wretched man ........ still?

In another thread I wrote

We have the impression that the wilderness is a desperate place to be, but it's where the Hebrews saw miracles day after day for forty years as God fed and provided for them. [b]After they got out of the desert, they were, effectively at war, much diminished, and yet united in purpose behind men of true faith.[/b]

When I wrote this yesterday, I realised it is only since I came to SI that I found brethren pointing out that the conflict arises [i]because[/i] we are born again by the Holy Spirit.

I was already familiar with the picture that Jesus comes into the temple of our body, and starts to clear out those that are trying to make merchandise of our souls - the bargainers trying to persuade us we still can sin and bring a sacrifice later - as much as He has come to restore the soul, heal the wounded spirit and mind. In fact, I noticed long time after this, in Matthew where it says 'and the blind and lame came to Him [in the temple] and He healed them [u]there[/u]. Perhaps because of all this, I cut myself some slack and stopped being so self-critical :-o - which had the effect of calming the roller-coaster I used to ride.

So, being in the 'promised land' - still a picture of the dwelling place of God's people - still [i]dust[/i] - and still fraught with unwanted residents - gives us a picture of finally bringing 'flesh' under God's domination.

Katy-did said
The Children of Israel who didn't go into the Promise land.. Why? Didn't they taste of the Holy Spirit? Manna..was a miracle...teh Shekinah Glory over the Camp. The Serpent lifted and anyone looking would be healed of Leprosy. Moses struck a rock and water came out....the Red Sea parted ...all of this....they certainly did taste of the Holy Spirit....yet God did not let them go into the Promise land. Read Chapters 3 & 4 again and go back to Exodus too. Was not the Holy Spirit there as well????

These verses do not say indwelt with the Holy Spirit and that is where we need to understand this is connected to all of what the Author of Hebrews is teaching.

To us today....
The Jordan represents the Cross, and the Promise land Jesus Christ Himself in the Church is parallel to Ephesians, our Heavenly Promise Land is Jesus Christ.

Many can be drawn to the Lord and just flat out refuse to cross that Jordan...they come right to the cross, and just gaze up at it, and never identify with it. or say like they did,,,oh we can't go over, there are giants in the land. They didn't have faith in God that what He promised them...this Promise Land...He was going to see it through.

But read verse 9 of Hebrews 6....see the word **Better** there...something that *better accompanies salvation*....that is the New Covenant of the indwelling Holy Spirit..."I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to walk in my statutes etc".

Chapter 10 goes even deeper....our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life....teh New and Living way, through the veil, that is to say His flesh...I am Crucified WITH Christ. This is the Gospel!

I noticed this in the 'New Calvinistic song' thread (p7) and wanted to comment on it there, but here is better, as this analysis is completely relevant to the discussion in this thread.

I praise God for the way He has laid out so many pictures in the Old Testament, to help us - to understand what Paul was receiving in the Spirit, and expounding, but with [b]Christ[/b] as his focus.

 2007/12/29 15:18

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924

 Re: A wretched man ...

bro Mike

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Sister, for me, it was just the opposite, a long, protracted, drawn out process and battle. Why did He not do the same in my case? It is not necessarily a question ... I recognize now why it was handled in the manner that is was, but do you see that this may not always be a correct way of interpreting our experience against that which we might want to hold to?

i have found (as i'm sure you have) that at times our being loosed from certain sins may be a long and drawn out ordeal and sometimes it's not so drawn out...instantaneous even. it was mentioned somewhere else on this thread that either way it is a Miracle. perhaps this is so to remind us that it all rests on Him and as a Father, He deals with each of His children in a way best suited to him/her lest we impose things on one another that we ought not to. i find sometimes if i think of a brother or sister struggling with something i have overcome, if i think "why don't they just get with the program?" then it is out of a false sense of "i loosed myself" and i'm not showing the Mercy shown me. a fall of some sort usually follows soon after. at any rate i believe in the long travails with Him as we contend with sin, we see something of a HOly Determination on His Part which will not relent until the work is done. This is of no more nor less significance than when the delivery is instant for that reminds us i believe of a Mighty Power which is able to loose any bond. i believe the display of the Manifold Wisdom of God through the Church to the principalities and powers is also shown in how He deals with us concerning our sin, not only that but in all things. Seeing as we are all unique, it stands to reason that His workings in us are Manifold on a personal level and also on a corporate one.

of my wretchedness apart from Christ there is no question. sometimes i hear His Voice through the word or another brother in one moment and then slip back into the mire of my old man...i believe in this way God reminds me continually of how it is by Grace that i am Saved lest i should boast. Paul at the beginning of his calling considered himself not less than the most imminent of the apostles, then later he said he was the least of them, toward the end of his life when he wrote to timothy he said he was the chief of sinners. i suppose as we grow in God we see more clearly how hopelessly wretched we are apart from Him, or at least we ought to. in that, for me anyway the scripture in which Paul says that God who has begun this work in us, this Good work, is determined to see it through till the day of Christ comes Alive. there is something about God knowing better than we our condition and being so determined, that while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us.

if ever i forget that i am a wretch, i am reminded by some outflow of the wickedness which is yet in me which God is working so hard to purge...God is Good...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Farai Bamu

 2007/12/29 19:00Profile



ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone. Hope all of you had a blessed time on Tuesday.

I don't know if this will be helpfull to the discussion or not, but I thought it was worth sharing.

I got my wife this huge book called Cosmos for Christmas. It is really big, I mean maybe like 2 feet long by 2 feet wide. And it has all these pictures from outer-space.

In part of the introduction, there is a photo of outer-space that spreads across two pages, and in the text in the bottom half it says, speaking about the vastness of space

"But this nocturnal display is just an infinitesmial fraction of the riches to be found in a cosmos that, while not infinite in extent, so dwarfs human experience that it might as well be. If we could percieve the full extent of the cosmos at a glance, our skies would blaze with the light of approximately a billion trillion stars in a view that stretched for 13.7 billion light years. But the human eye is a poor detector of light..."

David said the heavens declare the glory of God and that God has set His glory above them.

Paul said we have all sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.


Brother Chris, I wanted to comment on your post last week, but things were a bit hairy for me.

Brother this does touch me in a very personal way.

Whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed or confused, I've always found it exceptionally helpful to step outside and look straight up.

I see this horizon to horizon as merely His Hallway to Heaven.
The size alone reminds me how small my problems are compared to Him Who is far more vast than what the Hubble Telescope, etc., can see - not even considering my bare eye.

Thank you for this and yes, it is pertinent & helpful. :-)

 2008/1/1 14:43

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Dear He_Reigns,

Thank you for sharing that also :-)

I am going to try to remember to do that also.


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/1 15:08Profile

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