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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : King Saul – A Man Who Started Well -poonen

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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
The change didn't bring Saul into a place of love for the Lord or to humility that brings about obediance.



How do you know? Were you there to see the immediate fruit? You have no idea how long Saul might have ruled, offering lawful sacrifices. We know he built many altars, and, at least in one place, he was zealous to keep the law pertaining to the ingestion of blood.

We also see that he, like David, would consult God before going into battle.


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/12/25 0:16Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I think the passage you mentioned may have been in regards to Saul's features, but, maybe it could have been his disposition also. He may have even been a great man?



Yes, brother, I believe you are correct. The passage I mentioned was certainly not pertaining to Saul's spiritual stature. Bad judgment on my part, bad hermeneutics. I knew what I wanted to say, but bit off more than I could handle with that comparision to Job. As soon as I clicked "submit" I realized my error and slapped my forehead!

I am the first here to admit that Saul is not a character we normally think of when we extoll virtue, but, after reading his complete story several times (from the womb to the tomb) I have come to not be so critical in judging his heart from the very beginning. We just simply don't know, can't know - and inferential conjecture is really all we draw from with this, as sscott correctly pointed out.

I believe, like brother Zac, that Saul provides a great example of a man who starts off admirably enough in an anointed ministry - with traits of decency and honor and humility - but after God has exalted and used him, loses it all and ends up in a state of total disgrace. Think of Uzziah.

It reminds me of the people who sometimes win the lottery. In many cases, they come from simple, unassuming and humble professions like teachers and truck drivers. And, suddenly, they come into 5.7 million dollars and things get out of control. In terms of wealth and stature and glory, man, Saul hit the jackpot! He was catapulted unexpectedly into regal splendor; one moment he was searching for some runaway donkeys, the next moment Samuel was kissing him and pouring anointing oil over his head and he was king of Israel.

Now, these bus drivers and teachers who win the lottery and then go to shambles, can we justifiably say that they were of bad character [i]before[/i] they won the lottery? Or did the money change them? Hard to say...

Brother Paul




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Paul Frederick West

 2007/12/26 11:01Profile
broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

quote: Now, these bus drivers and teachers who win the lottery and then go to shambles, can we justifiably say that they were of bad character before they won the lottery? Or did the money change them? Hard to say...

I believe the majority of examples from the Word of God would favor the opinion that "trials" as well as "blessings" do not as much change essential character as "reveal" it. Joseph comes to mind as well as Job mentioned earlier in the thread. "When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold..."

Little foxes grow up to be big foxes if they are not aborted early. Over and over through the Word of God, God allowed all kinds of circumstances in the lives of those whom He had chosen... there is certainly the sense in which the circumstances helped to mould them, but on the other hand, that holy seed of faith in God, or that seed of trust in self, eventually produces after its kind.


1 Timothy 5:24 - 25 (NKJV) 24Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. 25Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.

In the illustration of the man winning the lottery, what would prompt a man to play the lottery in the first place? Is his character changed by winning? I would say a hearty, NO. No more than Esau's character was changed by the circumstances following his bowl of beans experience... it was revealed.

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2007/12/26 11:40Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Brother Paul, hope you had a very warm Christmas.


I appreciate very much what you shared here. This example of people who win the lottery is great!


"He was catapulted unexpectedly into regal splendor; one moment he was searching for some runaway donkeys, the next moment Samuel was kissing him and pouring anointing oil over his head and he was king of Israel."


This really helps to fill in the story brother. Thank you :) It's so easy to pass over these stories without reflecting on how all the circumstances and pressures come together.




About this...



"...can we justifiably say that they were of bad character before they won the lottery? Or did the money change them? Hard to say..."



I was meditating on some things yesturday and the story of Job came to mind. Job had that amazing testimony, that he eschewed, or maybe we could say he "shunned" all evil? In chapter 29 he recounts some of his former days, and as we read it we could say what a great man this was!!


He was like a judge in the streets(v7), princes and nobles held their peace at him(vs9-10) and even the aged men stood up when he went by!(v8). He was generous and considered the poor in their affliction(vs12-13,16) and he executed justice(v17). And when he spoke it was like the final word on anything(v22).


What an amazing testimony!


But as I was meditating I was reminded how Job had said, after all the evil had come upon him,


"For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."



What I had been meditating upon was [i]self-preservation[/i]. I was considering what it would mean in my own life and how it would apply. In what ways do I seek to preserve my life or is there any of this in me?

And so I was thinking about this story of Job and what he said here. And it seemed to me that there was something of this in his heart, something that wanted to preserve all this greatness and glory which was upon him, or, or and, however it may be, even that he feared loosing it?


That which he greatly feared had come upon him.



Sometime ago, a friend and believer in the Lord Jesus also had shared with me a verse from this story of Job as I was beginning to go through a very difficult time to trial and testing. It was from the 23rd chapter, though it was probably the whole chapter he gave to me to read, slowly he said, this verse in particular stand out, where Job says


"But he knoweth the way that I take: [i]when[/i] he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold."



That has stayed with me. I was listening to the radio not long after this and the man was describing how the refiner purifies, and how he continues to heat it and heat it again and each time scraping off the impurities which rise to the surface and finally, and this seems so glorious, until finaly, get this...he can see his own reflection in the heated and liquified metal!


He can see his own reflection!


Well brother, I don't know about this process, I mean I cant say if this is really true or not but I don't see why it couldn't be. It seems reasonable to me.


So going back to Job, and to this question of character, as I was thinking about all of this, it seems to me that we never really know what all is in our hearts brother. We never know what is there, untill some circumstance comes along to draw it out. For Job, even though he had all this great testimony, wasn't there still things in him left to be purged?



Going back to chapter 29, and perhaps to tie this all in with Saul, and with David, perhaps what is all the difference in the world in all of this, is what Job said here...


"When the Almighty [i]was[/i] yet with me..."


and how he says in days before "God preserved me".


In chapter 23, isn't this his very lament, that he feels as though God is gone from him? that he cannot find him?

But isn't this the very thing that makes all the difference for us, if God is with us?


How much we need God brother. How much we need God.

Isn't God really proving this over and again in all His dealings with us, how much we need Him? even the [i]greatest[/i] among us?





What do you think?



Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/26 12:13Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
In the illustration of the man winning the lottery, what would prompt a man to play the lottery in the first place?



This was just an example I used to show how one may come into extraordinary wealth and fame unexpectedly and almost overnight. Saul's notoriety and calling of God was not self-induced, nor was he desiring the bestowal of king. He tried to avoid it, he went and hid himself. I do not see this as a false humility; I actually believe the man was genuinely humble here, not at all looking for the colossal honor and responsibility of a military commander. Esau and Saul are incompatible in this, as Esau hungered for the stew; Saul was minding his own affairs, he asked nothing of God or Samuel (that is, in terms of his own glory). Saul's companion, if you remember, was the one who proposed visiting Samuel the Seer in the fist place - to perhaps get knowledge on whereabouts of the missing donkeys. And Saul was concerned to not to come empty-handed to the man of God.

This is not the actions of a lotto player; the only reason I brought the correlation between the lottery and Saul was to show how he came into extraordinary honor, riches and fame as if overnight...and how, through that fame and amazing increase and honor God eventually tested his obedience.

Saul, of course failed. My point here is that it is impossible to know the true state of Saul's heart from the very beginning. We know God gave him a new heart at the onset of his reign, and even Matthew Henry notes a certain time in Saul's rule where [i]his heart began to turn aside unto his own[/i].


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/12/26 12:14Profile
broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: where his heart began to turn aside unto his own.

Point well taken brother as well as Brother Chris's. BTW I have read both you brother's comments for some time here and have appreciated the thought and spirituality put into your comments. I suppose that may have been the :-) ulterior motive for jumping into the middle of this... looking for a bite of the fellowship.

God blesss you for your labor. I read your message from "years ago" and appreciated and agreed wholeheartedly.

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2007/12/26 14:13Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I have read both you brother's comments for some time here and have appreciated the thought and spirituality put into your comments. I suppose that may have been the ulterior motive for jumping into the middle of this... looking for a bite of the fellowship.



God bless you, dear brother. It is a great privilege to fellowship with mature brethren like you and ChrisJD. Isn't it tricky discussing these OT characters? They're unique and different from those in the NT. The Holy Spirit would come upon a man like Balaam or Saul or Samson, and it can be quite confusing discussing the spiritual parameters and heart conditions by which God related and interacted with them. It's both fascinating and mysterious - at least that's how it is for me! I'm fairly confident in my meager theological leanings [i]after[/i] the cross; prior to Christ, however, the workings of God and sovereignity of the Holy Spirit and the relation of such between the heart conditions of old covenant Jewish men and pagan gentiles and kings is often befuddling.

I'm the first to admit here in the forum that [i]I just don't know[/i] certain things. Many things! I've said it before that it is very liberating to make a mistake here...and admit it publically! The most unsettling thing I can think of is to be always right or speak of all things pertaining to God with a kind of dead-on confidence. I messed up with the Job comparison, and sscott and you and ChrisJD rightly called it. I bless God for the sharpening grace of iron brethren.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/12/26 15:08Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Brotehr Paul and clint and others,

I am so thankfull to have a place where I can talk with others like you.



Gratefull to God,


Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/26 16:05Profile





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